Question about tipping

[klou]

Harald explained this in the camp, using the analogy of a fighter jet formation, the jet closest to the turning side will take the turn first, followed by the other ones.
Tipping the stance leg first without tipping the free foot wont really work, since the knee/leg has nowhere to go to, there is no space.

[sashalex]

I just bought ACBAES 2 and read the section that Max pointed to. I'll put the explanation into my own words for anyone here with the same question.

The stance foot has the potential to tip "faster" than the inside foot, so the inside foot needs a headstart in order for both skis to reach the same angle at the same time.

And by the way, there are no stupid questions; only stupid people.

[Max_501]

The stance foot has the potential to tip "faster" than the inside foot, so the inside foot needs a headstart in order for both skis to reach the same angle at the same time.

Because of the biomechanics which were covered earlier...

Note - the muscles responsible for eversion (tipping to the BTE) are stronger than the muscles responsible for inversion (tipping to the LTE). If you tip to the BTE first you will end up with an a-frame. If you try to tip simultaneously you will likely end up with an a-frame. Tip to the LTE first.

Unfortunately none of this discussion resolves the issue you mentioned in the first post.

[sashalex]

Unfortunately none of this discussion resolves the issue you mentioned in the first post.

I respectfully disagree. Im of the opinion that correct knowledge is the first step to mastery of any sport. You wouldn't build a house on a shaky foundation, would you? Either way, Ill post some videos soon. I appreciate your time.

[Max_501]

I respectfully disagree.

How has this discussion, which does little more than confirm that PMTS teaches students to tip the inside ski first, resolve the divergence issue reported in the first post?

Note for general reference:

The tibialis anterior, tibialis posterior, flexor hallucis longus, and flexor digitorum longus muscles are responsible for inversion.

The peroneus longus and brevis muscles are responsbile for eversion.

[sashalex]

Because this discussion proves without a shadow of a doubt that the inside leg should lead the tipping...which (if you re-read my first post), was the essence of my query. I think a detailed explanation on why the inside leg should lead the tipping is important to some beginners...as evidenced by the pm's I'm receiving on the topic.

This discussion fully resolves the divergence issue because it implies that there is a flaw in my tipping technique. But I'm still not fully convinced because I don't know if you truly understand what I was originally asking. If you look at the phantom move...the essence of it is transferring weight onto the stance ski, and leading the tipping with the inside leg. To rephrase my question...does the inside leg still lead the tipping if you have not made the weight transfer to the stance ski. You said that weight distribution doesn't matter. To me thats confusing because I don't see how its possible to make a parallel turn without first transferring weight to the stance ski. If you lead the tipping with the inside ski, while having 50% of your weight on it...tip divergence is inevitable because that inside ski will hook up (as Jbotti stated).

I realize that the body mechanics of skiing is very hard to communicate in text (except for HH), so please bear with me.

[Max_501]

Because this discussion proves without a shadow of a doubt that the inside leg should lead the tipping.

If a student believes that Harald knows what he is talking about and follows the progression outlined in the books and this forum there shouldn't be any doubt. Tipping to the LTE always leads.

This discussion fully resolves the divergence issue because it implies that there is a flaw in my tipping technique.

The possible flaw in technique was covered in the 2nd post. Unfortunately the information in this thread can't resolve the issue because we don't know what is causing the divergence without video.

But I'm still not fully convinced because I don't know if you truly understand what I was originally asking.

And there is the main reason this thread continues. You are not convinced that a Blue Level PMTS Coach understands how to start a turn from a straight run.

To rephrase my question...does the inside leg still lead the tipping if you have not made the weight transfer to the stance ski.

Rephrasing the question doesn't change the answer.

To me thats confusing because I don't see how its possible to make a parallel turn without first transferring weight to the stance ski.

IMO you have jumped too far ahead and that is the source of your confusion. In PMTS we learn to make parallel turns with 100% of the weight on the stance ski, inside ski, and any combination of the two.

Here's an old post I wrote some time ago -

Learning PMTS can be very simple if you follow the progression HH has given us. Book 1, Book 2, then Essentials. No need to over analyze or question the steps that HH has laid out in the books and on this forum because they simply work. Nike has a slogon "Just Do It" and that applies here. Just Do It [PMTS] and you will be on the road to expert skiing.

Nearly every question I can think of has already been asked and answered on this forum. The best way to search the forum is to use Google. Here is an example that you can type into the google search box to find information on counteracting movements here.

"counteracting" site:http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum

or

"counter acting" site:http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum

Using Google focused on searching the PMTS forum yields a wealth of information!

[Bolter]

...does the inside leg still lead the tipping if you have not made the weight transfer to the stance ski. You said that weight distribution doesn't matter. To me thats confusing because I don't see how its possible to make a parallel turn without first transferring weight to the stance ski. If you lead the tipping with the inside ski, while having 50% of your weight on it...tip divergence is inevitable because that inside ski will hook up (as Jbotti stated).

I realize that the body mechanics of skiing is very hard to communicate in text (except for HH), so please bear with me.

I don't see weight transfer as an issue. Weight distribution is a fore aft thing. Skiing the various releases from one footed release, to two, to weighted; you will find that divergence is not inherent in any of them. For me, divergence happens sometimes in a brushed turn but if I pull back and tip more it is gone. Even in arcs, if the stance ski is delayed in hooking up- for whatever reason. No matter what, leading with the LTE to release and transferring to the LTE of the uphill ski (Super Phantom) will never produce a wedge entry- in my experience, that is the point.

Divergence happens! Look at my avatar. That is a much better outcome than the BTE first movement, which is always a wedge entry.

[Max_501]

Bolter, that is a great point! Divergence can happen to any of us, but it should be relatively infrequent. So if a student notices it happening often then something is wrong. Either movements or alignment.

Divergence can happen, but it just means you are steering more than tipping. It happens to the best, at times, but it always happens to the inside leg steering crowd.

sashalex, here's something I wrote back in 2007 which I learned after carefully working my way through Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier 2.

I think of the phantom and the weighted release as two extremes. In expert all mountain skiing you can have all your weight on either ski or some combination of the two. The key is to learn how to ski on all four edges and the weighted release is one of the tools to help in your learning.

The new inside ski is always tipped to the LTE first and that LTE tipping should continue throughout the turn. The specific weight distribution across the skis (which is constantly changing in expert skiing) doesn't change the tipping sequence. We could think of it as "follow the leader" where the leader is always the LTE of the inside ski.

[geoffda]

Good information from the replies so far. I'm going to throw in one more piece of information that might help.

When you start tipping with the free foot, provided your stance is narrow enough, the movement of tipping that foot (and only that foot) will automatically begin to move your center of mass across your feet and into the new turn. Basically, tipping with the inside foot causes the hips to move laterally so that they are no longer over the base of support (the feet), at which point they can move downward. The movement of the center of mass into the new turn is what pulls the stance foot onto big-toe-edge. If you do something to disrupt the movement of your center of mass into the new turn, then you will interrupt the mechanism that allows big-toe-edge tipping to follow and you will get divergence.

A 50/50 weight distribution is a position of stability and is very appropriate for a straight run. However, from a straight run, you have no forces from a previous turn to help get your center of mass moving in the new direction. You also may have adopted a wide(r) stance in the process. If your stance is wide enough that your feet have moved outside the heads of your femurs, then your center of mass cannot move outside your base of support and divergence will occur if you try to tip your inside foot. Even if your stance isn't too wide, you may be resisting (perhaps even unconsciously) allowing your center of mass to move. Have you tried your experiment with your boots touching? When you start tipping with the inside foot, you'll need to squeeze to keep your feet together. At no time should your boots ever lose contact. The ultra-narrow stance will help you to allow your center of mass to move. When you first try this, lift the tail of your ski prior to tipping so that all of your weight is on the outside ski. Although doing this is not necessary (as others have mentioned, it isn't about weight distribution), lifting the inside ski will force you to balance on one foot, which will also make it easier for you to allow your center of mass to move. Once you have this working with a lifted ski, you can try it without the lifting--but you still have to keep your boots touching! If you can't get either of these to work, definitely put up some video so we can help diagnose the problem.

One other thought for a dry land exercise. Stand about a foot away from a wall on your right side. With your feet touching, tip your right foot as far as you can (still keeping your feet together). As you are tipping focus on flexing (and relaxing) your right leg (which will allow you to keep tipping--so do it). Allow these movements to draw you towards the wall. You should end up with your right thigh touching the wall (we aren't applying any counteracting in this drill). You should also end up on the big-toe-edge of your left foot. This should demonstrate the mechanics of how tipping the inside foot and flexing the inside leg will move your center of mass which, in turn, will pull your outside foot onto big-toe-edge as angles begin to develop.

[geezer skier]

That is helpful Geoffda!

[Max_501]

One other thought for a dry land exercise. Stand about a foot away from a wall on your right side. With your feet touching, tip your right foot as far as you can (still keeping your feet together). As you are tipping focus on flexing (and relaxing) your right leg (which will allow you to keep tipping--so do it). Allow these movements to draw you towards the wall. You should end up with your right thigh touching the wall (we aren't applying any counteracting in this drill). You should also end up on the big-toe-edge of your left foot. This should demonstrate the mechanics of how tipping the inside foot and flexing the inside leg will move your center of mass which, in turn, will pull your outside foot onto big-toe-edge as angles begin to develop.

Word of caution for those working on this. Some students will end up with extreme knee pointing (rather than moving the center of mass) when attempting this exercise because they don't naturally co-contract the the joint muscles of the tipping leg when on dryland.

[sashalex]

Good information from the replies so far. I'm going to throw in one more piece of information that might help.

When you start tipping with the free foot, provided your stance is narrow enough, the movement of tipping that foot (and only that foot) will automatically begin to move your center of mass across your feet and into the new turn. Basically, tipping with the inside foot causes the hips to move laterally so that they are no longer over the base of support (the feet), at which point they can move downward. The movement of the center of mass into the new turn is what pulls the stance foot onto big-toe-edge. If you do something to disrupt the movement of your center of mass into the new turn, then you will interrupt the mechanism that allows big-toe-edge tipping to follow and you will get divergence.

A 50/50 weight distribution is a position of stability and is very appropriate for a straight run. However, from a straight run, you have no forces from a previous turn to help get your center of mass moving in the new direction. You also may have adopted a wide(r) stance in the process. If your stance is wide enough that your feet have moved outside the heads of your femurs, then your center of mass cannot move outside your base of support and divergence will occur if you try to tip your inside foot. Even if your stance isn't too wide, you may be resisting (perhaps even unconsciously) allowing your center of mass to move. Have you tried your experiment with your boots touching? When you start tipping with the inside foot, you'll need to squeeze to keep your feet together. At no time should your boots ever lose contact. The ultra-narrow stance will help you to allow your center of mass to move. When you first try this, lift the tail of your ski prior to tipping so that all of your weight is on the outside ski. Although doing this is not necessary (as others have mentioned, it isn't about weight distribution), lifting the inside ski will force you to balance on one foot, which will also make it easier for you to allow your center of mass to move. Once you have this working with a lifted ski, you can try it without the lifting--but you still have to keep your boots touching! If you can't get either of these to work, definitely put up some video so we can help diagnose the problem.

One other thought for a dry land exercise. Stand about a foot away from a wall on your right side. With your feet touching, tip your right foot as far as you can (still keeping your feet together). As you are tipping focus on flexing (and relaxing) your right leg (which will allow you to keep tipping--so do it). Allow these movements to draw you towards the wall. You should end up with your right thigh touching the wall (we aren't applying any counteracting in this drill). You should also end up on the big-toe-edge of your left foot. This should demonstrate the mechanics of how tipping the inside foot and flexing the inside leg will move your center of mass which, in turn, will pull your outside foot onto big-toe-edge as angles begin to develop.

Brilliant explanation. Thanks for taking the time to understand my question. I think many here (lurkers and members) just understood skiing a little better. I Just tried to tip my "inside" foot while keeping my feet glued together. I can confirm that the hips move laterally, and indeed the inside foot tipping pulls the outside foot onto the BTE. Im itching to try this out on the hill. Ill report back with results and possibly videos.

[Max_501]

I can confirm that the hips move laterally, and indeed the inside foot tipping pulls the outside foot onto the BTE. Im itching to try this out on the hill. Ill report back with results and possibly videos.

So, the big question is why the result was different when you were on the snow doing the same movement?

I would respectfully suggest that you go back to your MA thread and read the suggestions very carefully.

MA request for sashalex

Just a reminder that the boss said -

The first step is alignment, his is way off!!!!!

Unfortunately that's the likely source of the issues you are having. Video will help us confirm.

[sashalex]

geoffda was spot on. I glued my boots together, tipped the inside foot and the stance ski followed...no divergence. Thats what I love about skiing...the details are so important.