Two footed skiing

[RRT]

VicP » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:27 pm
What's funny is that I could not find the W(eighted) R(elease) anywhere in the Essentials book - might be there, but could not find it.

See ACBEAS 2, Chapter 8, pgs. 79-84.

[MonsterMan]

Beware, there are some incorrect amateur definitions/descriptions in some of the posts above, perhaps by mistake, perhaps not.

If in doubt, trust the books and PMTS coaches who have posted.

[VicP]

VicP » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:27 pm
What's funny is that I could not find the W(eighted) R(elease) anywhere in the Essentials book - might be there, but could not find it.

See ACBEAS 2, Chapter 8, pgs. 79-84.

Yea, I know it's there (ACBAES 2), but could not find it in the "Essentials."

Kind of strange as I consider the "Essentials" somewhat cumulative for PMTS at that point. Maybe it's buried somewhere in there, but I could not find it. An index would have helped.

[ToddW]

Essentials was written to add to and complement AOCBES 1 & 2 and the instructor manual, not to repeat their content. Most of the time when you think you see duplicative content in Harald's books, you need to read carefully to see what you're missing.

[h.harb]

Todd is correct, I didn't intend to duplicate everything in my following books. Expert Skier 2, has extensive coverage of how to go about skiing on all four edges. You need that ability to be come versatile. Weighted Release isn't less important because it's not in Essentials. Essentials is about the 5 categories of movement, not about the different ways to release.

Skiing is a complicated and unnatural sport and has many categories, topics and actions. If you want to be accurate, in the description of skiing, you can't possible cover all of skiing in one book. Max501 continues to tell everyone here to start with book 1 then read book2 after that get Essentials. It all fits, everyone wants to just take out one aspect and focus on it. That's not how you are going to get to expert skiing, there is no silver bullet.

That said, Expert Skier 1 is the fastest, most direct way to create expert movements. So many skiers try and practice Expert 1 for a few times and think they have it, and want to move on because they think they are ready for the next level. No, you don't have a Perfect Phantom or Super Phantom yet, it's not there. We see it at our camps. People think they have the Phantom down, but 95% or more don't. We spend a majority of our coaching hours teaching the foundation for the Super Phantom correctly at our camps.

[VicP]

Todd is correct, I didn't intend to duplicate everything in my following books. Expert Skier 2, has extensive coverage of how to go about skiing on all four edges. You need that ability to be come versatile. Weighted Release isn't less important because it's not in Essentials. Essentials is about the 5 categories of movement, not about the different ways to release. ...

Thanks - I got it now about the books. It's just I think that Essentials is probably the best all-around book on skiing that I have ever seen and the one I refer to the most.

I do remember doing weighted releases in the camps I took a few years back but for some reason have not focused on them very much in day-to-day skiing - but will the next time out. Are there any particular applications where the weighted release is preferred or is it just part of the vocabulary?

To note, It is somewhat easy to confuse the weighted release with the two-footed variety - it was for me and probably for others also. I thought that the WR was just an offshoot or drill for the TFR. It wasn't until I went back to previous literature, remembered the camps, and watched Von Gruningen tapes that I realized it was distinct.

[Max_501]

Are there any particular applications where the weighted release is preferred or is it just part of the vocabulary?.

When you should use weighted release

[VicP]

Are there any particular applications where the weighted release is preferred or is it just part of the vocabulary?.

When you should use weighted release

Hey Max - thanks! Great link to Google search results! Some of the stuff should really be a sticky - especially your Aug 7, 2007 compilation of Harald's post quotes on the weighted release.

[Max_501]

Nearly everything technical that HH and other coaches have written could be part of a sticky. The problem is there are literally thousands of posts with nuggets of gold in them. The good news is google can mine and deliver that gold in seconds!

FORUM READERS - Google is your friend!

[MonsterMan]

Regarding my earlier post about possible inaccuracies in some of the amateur posts, I have been sent a personal message from someone who has taken the comment personally.

Please let me clarify the wording.

"Beware, there are some incorrect amateur definitions/descriptions in some of the posts above, perhaps by mistake, perhaps not.

If in doubt, trust the books and PMTS coaches who have posted."

please add the line.

"If not in doubt, please ignore this post".

[MonsterMan]

Consider this, should you choose to:

RTE holds for all cases.

Hint: Max501 gave the key to you a few posts earlier: "Lifting the ski off the snow will also start a release (e.g. Phantom)"

Don't over complicate what was clearly described accurately by Mr Harb in ACBAES 1 and the later books. A lot of time went into inventing the system and then writing and editing those books.

[DougD]

RTE holds for all cases.

If you mean that every PMTS turn involves R, T and E, that's correct.

If you mean that every PMTS turn involves R-T-E in that order, that is incorrect. As discussed above, the Weighted Release turn is made by performing these actions in the order R-E-T.

Reference: ACBAES2, Chapter 8, offers two variations of the WR. On pages 80 and 82, the skier's actions are listed step-by-step in the correct order. In both sequences, the Transfer is performed last, i.e., after R and E.

Don't over-simplify what was clearly described accurately by Mr Harb.

[Kiwi]

At the risk of sounding like an EPIC poster, in my view the order of movements in the weighted release is RTE. Release the big toe edge , transfer balance to little toe edge OF THE SAME SKI, engage LTE. It seems to me that a transfer "of balance" must occur "before" or "at" the same time as engagement. Personally it seems odd to say transfer of "balance" happens after engagement because with out balance shifting nothing is accomplished. The key point to remember is the wt release involves the same ski for balance transfer as oppose to the other ski and is more difficult but the mechanics seem to hold true.

[Max_501]

Point of clarification - I'd guess the previous information regarding TRE appearing in this thread is based on a misunderstanding of the purpose of certain drills used for teaching LTE balance. The Phantom/Super Phantom based release is always RTE and I've never seen or heard Harald state otherwise. I think I've said this before - there is no point over analyzing or otherwise reading into what Harald has written. All we have to do is follow the instructions in the material. There is no ambiguity that I have found in my nearly 15 years as a student of PMTS.

From 2004 -

RTE - or is it TRE sometimes

John, you are braking down movements, specifically transitions, clearly and precisely. The original Phantom move was designed for every skier to use and to realize what it feels like to ski properly, without a bunch of mambo, jumbo tech talk. RTE in this case, the Phantom Move is, flex, bend, relax or withdraw the pressured foot/ski by getting the weight off. We have skiers pick the ski from the snow, so they can realize when they have actually made the movement. So in this case, the first move was to release pressure, which is the R in RTE, which also causes the transfer, leading to releasing edging, as the CG moves over the skis and toward the falline. As you tip the new inside ski, you achieve the E.

Release means get the pressure off, so you can get the edge changed.

If you do a Super Phantom, the uphill edge of the old inside is weighted or pressured before the CG moves over the skis. This is still caused by and constitutes a release of pressure from the stance foot, so yes, R is still first. Now, with a two footed release you still reduce the pressure on the old stance foot first, which causes the release. In a Von Gruenigen, although you don't lift the old stance ski, you still have to reduce pressure to get the CG moving, so there is a release or reduction of pressure on the stance ski. This causes the transition and edges to release. If we look at releasing as: reducing or eliminating pressure then it will always be first. Even if you are up un-weighting or stepping, your movement begins with activity with the downhill or stance leg. Stepping or extending increases pressure first, and then transfer is achieved. The question becomes is extension the act of releasing. It doesn't matter, as the explanation becomes an exercise in academics and not reality, which is where I don't like to go with ski technique. I describe movements in the simplest terms possible for the situation needed. So is extending the leg, engaging or releasing, it depends on context. Again, I say, just do it, don't get over involved in breaking it down to where it becomes meaningless.

I gave a clinic to a group of full cert instructors and I asked what does releasing mean to you? I got blank stares. Teach the movements, not the terminology, you will always be understood.

[h.harb]

Thanks Max501, Sometimes when I read my old posts I'm amazed, they are clear to me, even. I don't know how to explain it more succinctly. it's all there, I can't make it more complicated for those who do want to get complicated. Please stop trying, it's all there. Every-time you try to make it more complicated, you waste time.

Almost in every group, in every camp, someone makes a huge breakthrough. I always ask, what did you do? The answer is always the same.

"I just did what you told me, more then I thought I had to."

That's your answer to PMTS; if you aren't getting it. It's not because it's not there. It's because you have not done it enough, as much, or to your limit. Once you do you, you will get rewarded. As I keep saying, there is no sliver bullet. If you do what PMTS says, you will be successful beyond your dreams.