Question about control speed in high C

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Question about control speed in high C

Postby Bingster » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:05 pm

I heard about control speed in high C many times. Can anybody explain how to do that?

For me, when the slope is steeper, in order to slow me down, I tend to push my downhill ski hard closing to the end of the turn to gain centripetal force. The problem is, if the snow is hard or a little icy, my ski will start sliding away from me. Because this happens right before the transition, I cannot flex my legs properly. And this screws up the next turns also.

Thanks.
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:13 pm

The answer is flex. Flex more and hold the flex long in the top of the turn. In the bottom of the turn where you would normally begin to grind against a straight outside leg, begin to flex but do not fully release... Continue tipping. This will finish the turn strong, across the fall line. When you do release, give a deep flex.
Discipline is the refining fire by which talent becomes ability.

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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby Bingster » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:52 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:The answer is flex. Flex more and hold the flex long in the top of the turn. In the bottom of the turn where you would normally begin to grind against a straight outside leg, begin to flex but do not fully release... Continue tipping. This will finish the turn strong, across the fall line. When you do release, give a deep flex.

Thanks for answering my question.

I tried flex before. I know I suppose to flex for the transition. But without pushing downhill at the end of the turn, on slightly steeper terrains, my speed will soon out of control.
I don't understand how flex can reduce speed.
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby Max_501 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:17 pm

Can you get some video of skiing where this is happening? From that we should be able to offer some suggestions.

Flexing allows us to change edges faster so we get on the new edges (upside down) in the High C. The earlier you can make the edge change the sooner the skis can start working.
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby Bingster » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:15 am

OK, I will have my videos taken this weekend. And I will flex more.

Thanks for your help.
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby DougD » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:11 am

Bingster wrote:I tried flex before. I know I suppose to flex for the transition. But without pushing downhill at the end of the turn, on slightly steeper terrains, my speed will soon out of control.

But pushing harder at the end of a turn causes the stance ski to lose edgehold and skid sideways - especially on steep/icy slopes. You said so yourself. Pushing more than is necessary to maintain ski/snow contact always does this.

I don't understand how flex can reduce speed.

Flexing doesn't reduce speed. But flexing enables tipping - which does. Want to hold an edge on ice and make round, complete turns (which slow you down)? Keep tipping! Want to tip more? Stay flexed!
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby h.harb » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:42 am

When most people tell me they are flexing they "think" they are flexing!!! How do they know, well they work harder at flexing , working harder doesn't create flexing, relaxing creates flexing. Therefore you need video. BTW. Yelling loudly, "more flexing", like yelling "more cowbell", doesn't create either.
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby DougD » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:31 am

h.harb wrote:... working harder doesn't create flexing, relaxing creates flexing.

Beautiful, and so true. On the rare occasions that I've skied well, it happened because I was utterly relaxed.
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby Max_501 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:17 am

DougD wrote:Beautiful, and so true. On the rare occasions that I've skied well, it happened because I was utterly relaxed.


Just a minor clarification -

Relaxing muscles in the outside leg to release creates flexing - this is a very important cue for a student that has developed a push.

But that doesn't mean that relaxing muscle groups in a broader sense creates good skiing because expert level skiing requires serious muscular effort, especially with the muscle groups in the core, around the hips, and the quadriceps.
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby h.harb » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:00 am

When relaxing, one side of the body relaxes, or one set of muscles relax, the other side or set, has to hold with correct contractions. In flexing for releasing, eccentric contractions have to be understood and practiced. Especially in weighted releases. Squats in the gym, for example should focus on lowering the weight slowly, not so much lifting. Side sit ups, contract one side relax the other. Those are two examples.
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby Bingster » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:42 pm

When I want to get some icy conditions to shoot videos, last weekend we got excellent snow conditions which is unusual for my area :)

So this time, I didn't get into the problem of skies skidding away from me right before the transition. But any way I got 2 videos. Hopefully, people here still can tell where the problems are.
Here is the first video:

http://youtu.be/GfaK7yi2sEI

Here is the second video on crud snow. Maybe my problems are amplified here.

http://youtu.be/661PsSVYouw

Thanks a lot.
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:01 am

Hey Bing,
Hope all is well. Your skiing has definately improved from when we last skied together...anyway, i have taken a good look at your second video and i think your issues with your High C are being caused by not enough CB thoughout the turn...this is then causing various 'adaptive and recovery' movements to sneak into your skiing..

I can pretty much draw a straight line from your boots to your shoulders throughout your turn. Because of this leaning or 'inclination' into the turn, you still have weight on the inside ski. As the pressure builds at the end of the turn, this lack of balance on the outside ski develops into the ski skidding away from you just before the transition - which then causes you to react with a strong push of that leg as you fight for balance...look how far apart your feet are....

Consequently, as you enter the transition, your weight is now behind you - every phantom move has the tip of the ski raised....beacuse your weight is back and your CB is weak, you finish the transition and enter the High C with an extended outside leg..an early leg extension and 'leaning' into the turn destroys early tipping, which in turn makes it impossible to develop your High C.....and the cycle continues....

Your CB is your weak area. Until you can gain 100% commitment to the stance ski thoughout the ENTIRETY of the turn, your 'adaptive' movements will continue to compromise your skiing. Work on deliberate TFR's with emphasis on finishing the turn on the outside ski. If necessary, go back to the phantom move progression in book 1 and build youself back to linked TFR's.

When you can balance on one ski, your free foot management will now become the controller of the turn as opposed to your stance ski...you can now begin to really relax, which then leads to flexing and tipping.....
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby Bingster » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:00 am

Thanks a lot Gavin. You are right. CB is what I need to work on. On that crud snow, this becomes a bigger problem for me. I will practice more. But I have some questions:

On that kind of crud snow of the second video, do I suppose to put some weight on the inside ski to avoid one ski sink under the snow and the other float on top?
For short turns, at the end of the turn, is it allowed to have skies run ahead of me and I pull them back after the transition?
For short turns, everything happens so fast, how do I still keep high C in the turns?

Thanks.
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:31 am

On that kind of crud snow of the second video, do I suppose to put some weight on the inside ski to avoid one ski sink under the snow and the other float on top?


A judgement call and i await to be corrected by the gurus. But for me, unless its deep powder, i change nothing in my balance or weight ratio...see here for a powder explanation:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4562&hilit=powder#p46674
The key is that once you can balance on your outside ski - your kinetic chain takes over and provides strong CB and CA movements. Once this is ingrained in your skiing, subtle shifts in weight to aid balance become as natural as walking along a rocky path...

For short turns, at the end of the turn, is it allowed to have skies run ahead of me and I pull them back after the transition?


Not strictly true...yes you can allow your skis to run ahead of you at the end of the turn, but as soon as you start your transition, your skis need to be pulled back under you. In powder, if you relax enough at this point, the 'friction' of the snow will do this for you, but this requires a deft touch and a good feeling for whats going on under your boots and where your homebase position is. Revisit essentials chpt 7 and developing a good 'float' - ACBAES 2 chat 9 - will help create this.

For short turns, everything happens so fast, how do I still keep high C in the turns?


The problem is how you are finishing your turns. Without strong CB & CA you will not have created the right conditions for a good release.

CB ensures that you are balanced on you stance leg and the ski is bent into an arc (speed, size of turn etc will determine how much the ski is bent) - this is 'stored' energy. CB creates strong edge hold which facilitates strong CB. Note how with strong CA you have pre-loaded the lower half of the body with a 'twist' in the direction of the new turn - this is also 'stored' energy..
When you FTR or more importantly RELAX to release, you are releasing the stored energy in the ski and your body to start your transition..this energy release creates the 'float', which in turn creates the environment to flex as required, transfer feet, tip, pull free foot back, etc etc. If you allow your body (C of G) to move and relax throughout the transfer, the High C will naturally happen. Any extension/ pushing or reduction in CA/ CB will kill off the High C and result in acceleration through the fall line and a hard edge set prior to the next transition in order to control speed...This is where linked TFR's come into there own. Start slowly and make sure that you start each release in the correct body position..this starting position is how you want to finish your turn....

I have seen HH create more CB, CA and ski bend than i thought possible on a green run at 5mph. It was like watching a tai chi master...
Last edited by go_large_or_go_home on Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question about control speed in high C

Postby NoCleverName » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:35 am

Look at second vid at around 16-19 secs. At the end of the turn there is a lot of flex in order to release. Yet at transition all that flex is gone and you are more upright. The flex is supposed to be "conserved" thru transition and only go away as the net turn develops. I.E., subtle push-off with little range of tipping available due to extension. In the first vid there was a good sideways shot that showed feet way in front of the hips. So lack of pullback. First vid is also a good one for you to evaluate the amount of flex being developed at each point in the turn.

As Gavin points out and you acknowledge, you need to get the CB going. Without CB there is little capability to tip because with inclination you will literally tip over if you do tip much.
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