Centred during the WHOLE turn .

[jclayton]

I still have trouble remaining centred at the beginning of the turn . Reading an E-mail sent to Harald about the free foot pull back I realized that I have been relaxing at the end of the turn , not concentrating on keeping the free foot back and thus having to "catch up" at the beginning of the new turn .

Should the free foot be pulled back during the "float" so you should have the sensation of pulling both "free feet" back at the same time to keep the body centred ?. I.e the feeling of lifting both heels back up towards the butt with the hamstrings . Then concentrate on the new free foot only . If so should this simultaneous action last as long as the float ? ( perhaps this could be played with just as we prolong or shorten the self same float )

I have had limited success with the idea of pushing the hips forward in a kind on "pelvic tilt" during the beginning of the turn . Would this be better served by keeping the pelvis continually "tilted" while operating the various free foot or feet moves ? Also this would comply with the idea of always starting with the feet and not by a "hip push".

[Ken]

I feel that, "he feeling of lifting both heels back up towards the butt with the hamstrings," and, "you should have the sensation of pulling both "free feet" back at the same time," are two different things. I can feel like I slide my feet back. lifting the heels upward seems different to me.


Ken

[milesb]

Pull both feet back and you are almost guaranteed to skid the start of the turn. It can be used as an emergency recovery move in the bumps, but otherwise just pull the free foot back throghout the whole turn. If you maintain a steady pull, then there won't be much/any need for adjustment during the float.

[Ken]

It doesn't work that way for me. I have a figure-of-eight feeling of the skis under my body. I pull the feet behind me as I begin the turn to pressure the tips. I let the skis flow forward so the pressure is more centered or maybe on the tails at the end of the turn, then pull the feet back at the beginning of the next turn.

Part of this depends on where on the skis your bindings are mounted (see Peter's articles), the characteristics of your skis, and the characteristics of your boots.


Ken

[jclayton]

Letting my feet slide forward at the end of the turn is where I feel I am failing to keep centred . Ok racers do , I used to try to copy Tomba , but I feel I should be able to keep forward and under control first . Of course I am talking about skiing at speed or on steeper slopes .

Lifting the heels towards the butt is just a sensation , I don't actually lift them off the ground , I just tension the hamstrings .

I guess what I am after is a precise "cue" for the start and finish of the pull back move .

The "pelvic tilt" has been mentioned in previous posts but I would like any ideas on its relation to the pull back move . Do the top skiers have an awareness of this , or is it automatic ?

[piggyslayer]

Jclayton,

Here is a link to Harald?s writeup from last year: ?For/aft movements to acquire balance? http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=77
I am not sure if you saved it, so here it is.

I think you are right in your observations.
It is my understanding that you do not want explicit forward movement in the hip.
Here is what I understand about it:
Hamstrings are polyarticular (articulate over more than one joint) and contracting hamstring with knee joint fixed will have an effect on the hip called retroversion (in upright standing position retroversion would look like hips move slightly forward). In skiing obviously other joints are not fixed, but some level of impact on the hip joint must be there, especially with flexed knees, and I believe this explains the look. You may also see the lower back slightly curled as a result of (adaptation to) hip retroversion.

Your question about fore-aft balance strategy is a tough one and I do not know the answer.
I will ask Harald when I see him in Montana, unless he finds time to answer your question earlier.

I love sensation of turns when I regain fore balance at the very beginning. For some reason tipping seems to be so much more effective in this position.
On the other hand contracting hamstrings is a tool to bend the skis in the upper C. For this reason, it may make sense to be patient and to get more aggressive with this movement after skis have established the new edges.

I think that some part of the answer largely depends on what you want to accomplish with your turns (speed, GS competition -you need to master it, easy speed controlled turns- you never have to go aft).

My understanding is that valid tools for regaining fore balance are:
- using momentum from previous turn to have CM catch up with the rest of the body (sort moving CM across using shorter line to catch up).
- Contracting hamstring muscles.

The ability to regain fore balance early may also depend on how much forward flex is allowed in your boot. If your buckle your boot tight (top buckle and velcro) just flexing in the end of the turn will result in a bit more aft position.
It also helps me to use a bit shorter poles.

Great question, I am looking forward to reading more discussion on this.

Robert

[jclayton]

Thanks Piggyslayer , this is the kind of response I'm looking for .

I use booster straps to adjust forward flex .

I am looking to reach the highest levels of ski performance without being able to race ( due to geography and time ) . I like speed ( live in Europe ) ultra carving , freeskiing and bumps .

I'm" looking for cues " . Like a lot pf people I guess I don't have anyone to monitor me and so need to have understandable cues or as Harald puts it, points of reference .

I read Haralds post , several times, but still one forgets some points while skiing . I feel there is still a bit of a hole in explanations with regard to my queries .

[Bluey]

JC,

As you know, ...I'm not an expert , .... I'm wondering whether part of the staying-centred problem is also connected with the actions of the upper body in affecting/contributing to overall balance.

My suggestion is that possibly you may want to also consider your use of your inside "Strong-Arm" throughout the turn.
( Maybe your pole/hand positioning at the end of old turn / beginning of the new turn is being rushed or possibly your hands/poles are too far back or too far forward at different parts of the turn .......maybe the inside Strong-Arm is too low or the knuckles aren't facing "up" enough ..........)

( By way of note, .....most of the components/external cues of the Strong-Arm position are described in Book 1 on page 134 & there are also 2 pages of good stuff/explanations in the Instructor Manual on the Strong Arm position ( pages P-108 & P-109 )....... ).

Bon chance

Bluey.....

[Kirtland]

It didn't look like anybody responded directly to your question about whether you should keep your pelvis tilted through the turn. The short answer is yes. The long answer may get muddled by words and I find it a hard concept to learn or teach. So a graphic example is probably the way to help understand it. Look at any of the World Cup Skiers particularly Bode Miller (Try ski-and-ski.com/Patrick/Bio/Miller.htm) First look at his feet, notice that he has his inside foot consistently pulled back further than you might imagine is normal. Then look at his hips, notice that his hips are only slightly countered, which is why he can keep his inside foot back under him so well, and that he is driving forward with his hips. It is usually said drive through with your outside hip, although that may not be technically accurate, it is the sensation one feels because that is the one that lags behind usually and it is the one you are building up pressure on, so thats the one you feel. Allthough it may not be apparent that the pelvic tilt is maintained, I think you can tell it is, because in the pictures where there is bending over, it doesn't come just at the Hip joint which would be breaking at the hip, instead it comes from the hip and the spine flexing together. You can do a static excercise to feel this, with just shoes or boots on, get yourself in the position with a pelvic tilt, squat down a little and jump into the air. Now bend over and break at the hip and jump. You should feel a signifigant difference in balance and power.
So if your stance is similar to Bode Millers in a turn, when you start a new turn and release your old stance ski quickly, your new stance ski will come right underneath you and you can pressure the front of the ski. To sum it up, if you keep your inside foot back, keep your outside hip pushing through the turn and time your flexing and extension just right you will release from a position of pressuring your ski under the heel to being able to pressure with the ball of your foot. I want to point out the release has to be quick and dynamic to the point of possibly feeling like you are pulling your knees to your chest. A good example of someone who does this dramatically is Janica Kostelic who won the Bormio GS today.
The information posted about having a strong arm position is important also, but notice that world cup skiers don't always maintain that and get away with it, because everything else further down in the body is stacked up balanced and strong over their skis.
I hope you find this helpful. Kirtland

[jclayton]

Nice post , I like getting the personal angles like the bit about jumping with a pelvic tilt . It' something that can be felt .
People talk about maintaining abdominal tension , this I assume , also keeps the pelvis forward . Keeping abdominal tension just by itself never seemed to make much sense .

[Harald]

I moved this post to a new thread as skiing is not about staying centered through the whole turn. This connotes a static position. We are always changing and moving or at least we should be, like sharks.

[Max]

Is this hip use we are talking about covered anywhere in Books or Videos? I'm having a tough time understanding what to do.