A question about counterbalance

[gaku]

Having performed Dryland-exercises this week (particularly enjoying the S-walk while no one is watching ), I've started to wonder how one achieves counterbalance at the hips. Counterbalance of the upper body, at least If you contract your obligues, leads to the outside rather than inside hip getting rasised and, as a result, the outside leg lifting (If the balanse is on the inside leg)--but this is the opposite of what we want to do. Similarly, If you don't forcefully contract your obligues, but rather crunch just enough, there is no outside hip tilt. And when I'm balancing on the outside leg, regardless of how forcefully I contract my obligues, there is no outside tilt either. The only way I manage to raise my outside hip is by moving my upper body well over my stance foot (but crunching at the obligues does nothing for or against this movement). Is this the only way to achieve counterbalance at the hips, or am I missing a certain motor pattern? It strikes me as a rather passive way to tilt the hips--i.e being the result of upper body lean--as opposed to counteracting, where the hips play the active part in the movement. Is the crunching at the obligues the way to achieve CB with the upper body, and the outward inclination to achieve counterbalance at the hips?

[geoffda]

http://www.harbskisystems.com/index.php ... Itemid=311

[go_large_or_go_home]

I feel you pain...I also struggled with this last season - not helped by that fact that I incorrectly ingrained the 'side crunch' into my skiing practice...the result, as HH described it, "Bad Ass" - where the opposite hip is raised...

This season, I have deliberately not 'trained' the oblique crunch into my movement pattern and instead worked on my hip mobility and relaxation. So far, so good. Much better ROM and my hips appear to be moving in the right direction...also noted that after my first few days back on the slopes, it's my glute Mede's that are aching, which is an indication that I am using the correct muscle groups to actively raise my inside hip...

Despite this being an athletic and dynamic sport, learning how to relax and engage the correct muscles is just as important as learning the movements. In some ways, having a break in your season is nessesary in order to 'reset'...

[Ken]

Counter acting facilitates counter balance. It is easier to bend forward than to bend sideways. The counter acting allows more forward bend. I push my inside hip (and the rest of that side of my upper body) forward to counter act while pulling the inside foot back.

I know when I'm correctly counter balanced when I can momentarily lift the tail of my inside ski off the snow during a turn. That's my indicator; if I don't counter balance right I'm too heavy on that inside ski.

The double pole drag is a good drill to start counterbalancing. Hold the hands to the sides in the correct positions, press the poles down hard into the snow, and ski. Keep both tips pressed down hard into the snow. Do all the correct movements including counter acting. Drill on steeper runs and you'll be counter balancing more.

[Max_501]

If the outside leg is weighted and the inside leg is light (lifted) then the contraction of the outside oblique should lift the inside hip as the distance between the outside rib cage and pelvis decreases. Because the outside leg is weighted it should not be possible for the outside hip to lift.

[DougD]

Geoffda, thanks for that link... another insighful, succinct explanation/demonstration by HH. Great stuff.

Back in the '80s, one of the ski mags ran a photo of Tamara McKinnney at the mid-point of a GS turn. Her position was so mind-blowing I tore the photo out and saved it for years (no, not under my pillow ).

McKinney's skis were waaaay up on edge - outside ski bending, inside ski light, inside shin brushing the snow - yet her pelvis was dead level . If you cut the photo in half at her femur sockets, flipped the bottom half and stuck the halves back together, everything still looked right. Only her CA and hand position gave away the fact that she wasn't making the same turn in the opposite direction. Massive edge angles with zero hip tilt... an extraordinary ROM. Wish I could find that photo now, it would be interesting to post.

What wasn't apparent was the use of certain muscles in the pelvis/glut region to support this. HH's explanation helps us non-WC types at least begin to understand what's involved (and no, I certainly can't do it).

If the outside leg is weighted and the inside leg is light (lifted) then the contraction of the outside oblique should lift the inside hip as the distance between the outside rib cage and pelvis decreases. Because the outside leg is weighted it should not be possible for the outside hip to lift.

True... unless one were to actively extend the stance leg, which might overwhelm the contracting obliques and raise the outside hip. One more reason to avoid active stance leg extension at any point in the turn. It tends to undo CB even if the skier has begun the turn correctly.

[Max_501]

True... unless one were to actively extend the stance leg, which might overwhelm the contracting obliques and raise the outside hip. One more reason to avoid active stance leg extension at any point in the turn. It tends to undo CB even if the skier has begun the turn correctly.

Is there a biomechanical reason that extending the outside leg would block CB?

[theorist]

McKinney's skis were waaaay up on edge - outside ski bending, inside ski light, inside shin brushing the snow - yet her pelvis was dead level

This one of Miller might be comparable (see lower photo): http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2013/ ... style.html His pelvis isn't level, but close, and his ROM is extraordinary.

[DougD]

True... unless one were to actively extend the stance leg, which might overwhelm the contracting obliques and raise the outside hip. One more reason to avoid active stance leg extension at any point in the turn. It tends to undo CB even if the skier has begun the turn correctly.

Is there a biomechanical reason that extending the outside leg would block CB?

Not that I know of.

[DougD]

Theorist, thanks for that link. Love the 2nd photo of Bode.

It looks like he was skiing the Birds of Prey DH or SG, so he was sking faster than Mckinney. He also seems to be dealing with a double fall line. For those reasons, his stance leg is more extended than McKinney's and his free foot is more flexed. (Can you imagine attaining this position at 50+mph? I can't even get there standing in my living room with the sofa for support! )

From memory, McKinney had a similar amount of CB. Her pelvis was level because she wasn't in such an extreme turn. Still, as with her photo, if you sliced Bode's photo across at his femur sockets and flipped the bottom half, everything but his hand position would look perfectly natural. Similar ROM.

This was just to reinforce the article that Geoffda linked, where HH explained that CB begins from the hips, not the waist. The photos and imaginary flipping of the bottom halves show this - femurs change sides but the hips remain level (as much as possible). HH explained the biomechanics beautifully.

[cheesehead]

An alternative perspective to lifting the inside hip I use is to move the lower spine closer to the wing of the pelvis (on the outside hip). It seems to me that the end result is to lift the inside hip but in a slightly different way. I will sometimes do one run focusing on lifting the inside hip and the next run on moving my lower spine towards the outside hip.

What do you think about this approach, experts?

[Max_501]

What do you think about this approach, experts?

Without seeing you in action it's only a guess but in a general sense I'd guess this mental image won't give you the result of rotating the pelvis around the head of the femur, but instead cause a slight curve at the lower spine. Remember that we can't rely on feelings, we need video or a coach watching us for feedback.

[cheesehead]

What do you think about this approach, experts?

... this mental image.... Remember that we can't rely on feelings, we need video or a coach watching us for feedback.

I would "beg to differ" that what I am describing is a mental image. What I am saying is that it is possible to move the lower spine between the wings of the pelvis and this can affect the tilt of the pelvis. It depends on how much mobility you have in that area, but it is a movement not a "feeling." It is similar to the "crunch" that people have described with the addition that your spine moves towards that outside hip. (It will tilt the pelvis, lifting the inside hip, if you go far enough with the spine to "hit" the wing of the pelvis and then go a little farther with that movement to lever the pelvis up.)

But it is still a movement not a feeling.

I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not somehow "endorsing" doing this movement. If you experts say "keep your spine midway no matter what" that is great. If this is compatible with inside-hip-lifting and/or abdominal-crunching that is great also.

[jbotti]

It seems that for many it is easy to make things more complicated than they need to be. The boot touch drill does wonders for making sure the the COM is over the outside ski. The only question or issue is what position are the hips/pelvis in. Work on this with the dryland work in front of a mirror as outlined previously in this thread. If you do both of these and work on them until they become default moves in your skiing you will no longer have any CB issues. These two are proven and they work. Everything else especially thoughts, images, movements that aren't proven will likely be a waste of your time and energy. All of us only have so much training time. Why waste any of it on anything other than proven drills designed by Harald and Diana?

As for the ability to feel something and know you are getting it right. As been said time and time again, they just cant be consistently trusted. I thought I had made a breakthrough in my CA work early last season until I saw the videotape. If you want to get it right and not waste your time, get video shot.

Broken record: do the drills that Harald has designed. Do them properly until they become your default movements. Shoot video to insure that you are doing them correctly. If you cant do the MA have a PMTS coach do it for you.

[cheesehead]

It seems that for many it is easy to make things more complicated than they need to be.

I wasn't trying to make it complicated. Lifting the inside hip is a recognized PMTS goal. I will see if I can get some video of me doing the boot touching drill.

It has been a strange season for us in the Midwest -- it was the second coldest November on record, so we had a few ski days around Thanksgiving, but then it warmed up to the 50's until after Christmas. Then it was near zero for almost a week. The snow is surprisingly good, the base is fairly smooth and solid (very hard when it is near zero but not icy). But I have only been skiing now for a week so am still shaking out some of the new-season bugs. Once I get a little more settled I will get some video.

The MA I got last year was extremely helpful so I look forward to getting more advice.