Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns?

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Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns?

Postby theorist » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:20 am

What are the best drills for dialing in the timing of flex-to-release in high-energy turns? Power releases? When I flex too late, I get launched. Too early, and the turn is dead. Just right, and I have a moment of Zen where I'm weightless during the float, making for effortless tipping. But I'm having trouble achieving that consistently. The pressure comes on suddenly, so if I wait to feel it, it's too late ... I'm wondering if the solution is to get the pressure to build more gradually, which would of course make the timing much easier.

[Sorry if I missed it, but I couldn't find anything explicitly about this in in ACBAES1 or 2, the Instructor Manual, or the Essentials Tipping/Flexing DVD (my Essentials book is on loan to a friend).]
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby jbotti » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:19 am

Getting launched with rebound is not an issue if your fore aft balance is in the right place at transition. Too far back and you won't be able to handle the rebound. I would focus more on this than finding the perfect timing.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby Max_501 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:17 am

I suspect jbotti's hunch is correct and what you are feeling has more to do with fore/aft position. I know I sound like a broken record but without video it's just a guessing game.

Note - The release timing depends on the specific turn you are making.
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby theorist » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:44 am

jbotti wrote:Getting launched with rebound is not an issue if your fore aft balance is in the right place at transition. Too far back and you won't be able to handle the rebound. I would focus more on this than finding the perfect timing.


I hear what you're saying, but I think my hips are right up over my feet, because when it happens I feel a jolt of pressure that runs straight up my leg and into my hip joint (it's uncomfortable; it may be that my knee is locked). Also, I'm not launched backwards, I'm thrown over onto the other side -- my old inside arm comes up over my head, and I feel like I'm fully inclined and need to scramble to get my new counter into place. At least that's what I can tell you. Sorry I don't have video -- I brought my camera but it's early season and my friend, who's not PMTS, understandably just wanted to ski.
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby h.harb » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:14 am

but I think my hips are right up over my feet, because when it happens I feel a jolt of pressure that runs straight up my leg a


If we are talking about retraction then you should not be right over your feet. IN the act of retracting, the knees should come up and the hips come closer to the ground, behind your boots.
http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2014/10/pmts-skier-development-transition.html

If you are collapsing rather than retracting, you get a quick drop of the hips, but it doesn't absorb shock and the pressure is gone, but you get stuck in the back seat. Retracting includes pulling back the boots and tipping of the old outside ski toward the new edge.
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby h.harb » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:17 am

The other possibility is late onset of pressure, and hard edge sets, this causes a late hard hit, which is very difficult to retract or flex out of in time. A late hit is caused by too much steering, rather than "tipping" in the High C.

Pull back and tipping to come out of a retraction:

http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2014/10/transition-continued.html
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby theorist » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:48 am

h.harb wrote: If we are talking about retraction then you should not be right over your feet .....The other possibility is late onset of pressure, and hard edge sets, this causes a late hard hit, which is very difficult to retract or flex out of in time. A late hit is caused by too much steering, rather than "tipping" in the High C.


I feel like the problem is I'm still on an extended stance leg when my CM crosses over, i.e., that I haven't yet flexed and retracted; but it may be the other possibility you mention, which is that I'm getting a late hit from steering in the high C. OK, I'll need to get someone to video me.
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby Max_501 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:30 am

theorist wrote:I feel like the problem is I'm still on an extended stance leg when my CM crosses over, i.e., that I haven't yet flexed and retracted; but it may be the other possibility you mention, which is that I'm getting a late hit from steering in the high C. OK, I'll need to get someone to video me.


The flex causes the release so if the leg is long then you can't release unless you are using inside leg extension (up move).
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:13 pm

Are you on your 'new' skis? If so, then I suspect that being on a pure PMTS ski, slight deficiencies in your technique are being exposed. Timing issues, balance problems and movement patterns will all be found wanting on your new ski. I found a similar problem when I transitioned to my TT80's. There is even MA video to prove it. Slight pivoting and late/ hard hits were causing me issues all over the mountain...the amount of performance and energy that you can extract from a ski using PMTS movements is staggering, buut when your movement patterns/ timing is off, the ski will buck from under you.....It wasn't until halfway through camp that I came to love my skis TT's....now, they are my weapon of choice...
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby theorist » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:21 pm

Max_501 wrote: Note - The release timing depends on the specific turn you are making.

Is there a thread you can link that has a comprehensive discussion of this? I did a search and wasn't able to locate one. I found a paragraph on this in ABCAES2 ("Timing of Linked Turns", p 178), which says a slower rate of flexing creates a longer turn, and rapid flexing a shorter one. But that's different from the timing -- I'm not sure if this is right, but I think in longer turns I do a slower flex but start it earlier, while in shorter turns I do a rapid flex but start it later -- except, of course, when I don't do it at all (I've not yet experimented with pulling radius).
Last edited by theorist on Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby theorist » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:30 pm

go_large_or_go_home wrote:Are you on your 'new' skis? If so, then I suspect that being on a pure PMTS ski, slight deficiencies in your technique are being exposed. Timing issues, balance problems and movement patterns will all be found wanting on your new ski. I found a similar problem when I transitioned to my TT80's. There is even MA video to prove it. Slight pivoting and late/ hard hits were causing me issues all over the mountain...the amount of performance and energy that you can extract from a ski using PMTS movements is staggering, buut when your movement patterns/ timing is off, the ski will buck from under you.....It wasn't until halfway through camp that I came to love my skis TT's....now, they are my weapon of choice...


Yes :mrgreen: , and I loved those skis from the first run -- they're already my weapon of choice. I really liked the energy I was able to get out of them. Which, of course, as you say, exposes deficiencies in technique. Actually, that's why I like them: it makes my deficiencies clearer, because I feel like I'm not struggling with the ski, I'm struggling purely with me. ["Slight deficiencies" was being generous :D ] Alas, I won't be able to ski them again for a few weeks -- there were still too many rocks, so I'm going to have to revert to my rock skis until conditions improve.
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby Max_501 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:42 pm

theorist wrote:Is there a thread you can link that has a comprehensive discussion of this?


The simple answer is that I release when I want the turn to end. If I'm skiing tight bumps that will be sooner than carving Super SL sized turns down a steep headwall.

Again, without video it's all guess work but consider working on the power release drill with the timing mentioned here:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3972&start=15
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby theorist » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:46 pm

Max_501 wrote:The flex causes the release so if the leg is long then you can't release unless you are using inside leg extension (up move).

I was thinking the same. But if you wouldn't mind just one last general question: Is it possible, on a locked leg, to move into (actually, be shot into) the new turn by reaching down the slope while your ski continues to carve under you? I.e, a release without flexion or extension? I will work on getting video. And thanks jbotti, Max, Harald, and go_large for your comments.
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby Max_501 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:23 pm

theorist wrote:Is it possible, on a locked leg, to move into (actually, be shot into) the new turn by reaching down the slope while your ski continues to carve under you? I.e, a release without flexion or extension?


Not without some gross upper body movements to break the balance of the carving ski.

Note - reaching down the slope sounds like CB at the bottom of the turn. I can crank CB at that point and the turn won't release.
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Re: Drills to dial in timing of release in high-energy turns

Postby h.harb » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:54 pm

The exercises you have to have command of if you don't understand why your releasing isn't working for you, in this order are:

1. Phantom Move, Book 1
2. Super Phantom, book 2
3. Two footed release, Book 2
4 Weighted release, book 2
5. Power release, Essentials.

Do not begin with the "Power Release" without understanding the others. The power release is in the "Essentials" book and video, which are now 9 years old. And to answer your question, there is an answer to all your questions about releasing, just go back to the books and do the exercises, it's all in there.
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