Question on 'Pushing Off'

[Skizoo]

Does a push off only occur with an up movement in transition or are there other movement mistakes that can result in a push off in the transition that don't involve an extension?

Dave

[jbotti]

It is pretty much impossible to push off the old stance leg when you flex that leg in release (impossible to push off an unweighted ski). The up move which is so prevalent usually contains some push off on the old stance ski while the ski remains engaged (has not released and no tipping to the new LTE is occurring). Usually this is accompanied by a resetting of the old free foot from the LTE to the BTE causing a stem (even if it is well hidden and small). If you don't flex to release and you don't initiate the new arc with LTE edge tipping this is the most common way to produce an edge change.

Many of us have done super phantom move drills ad nauseum to make sure we are using flexing and tipping to release, transfer balance and engage.

I guess to truly answer your question I would say it is likely possible to hide push off some but you cant truly flex and push off at the same time.

If you want to make sure you are not pushing off make sure you flex to release.

[CO_Steve]

Dave, You can also extend after you've tipped to the new edges. This is not correct. We all see Harald with the long leg laying it down but you don't get there by actively extending the new stance leg.

[Skizoo]

Thx Guys, what prompted the question, is today I was skiing about 2-3" of wonderful eastern powglop, over a really granular base that got heavier and wetter as the morning went on..

The snow required a really strong release and I'm pretty certain there was no extension during the transition, in fact I think it was the opposite where I was flexing to release more than would be my 'normal'. The weight or pressure I felt on the new stance ski during transition was more than I am used to feeling, and I thought that I might be pushing off.

Dave

[CO_Steve]

We've had some warm not quite frozen all the way snow this week. When things are right you can get an amazing amount of grip really early in the turn.

[HeluvaSkier]

Really, what you're specifically doing is impossible to know without seeing you ski. Any number of things could be happening... It is risky to rely on feel, especially in foreign conditions.

If I was to wager... I'd bet you have a push off of some sort. Very few have no push off... so it is an easy wager.

[Matt]

I think the most common way to fool ourselves is to relax the outside leg but push off with the inside. This way it is easy to think that we are flexing to release, but we are just relaxing the outside because the inside leg is extending. First time I saw myself on video I was really surprised to see the inside leg extend before edge neutral.

[Max_501]

Really, what you're specifically doing is impossible to know without seeing you ski. Any number of things could be happening... It is risky to rely on feel, especially in foreign conditions.

If I was to wager... I'd bet you have a push off of some sort. Very few have no push off... so it is an easy wager.

Agree 100%

[cheesehead]

. First time I saw myself on video I was really surprised to see the inside leg extend before edge neutral.

Harald keeps telling us to put weight on the inside/uphill ski on the LTE before the transition. That means there is some action in the quadriceps. Whether that can be done without extending that leg at all I don't know. I also don't know if what I am describing is totally wrong. If so, as usual, please tell me. Diplomacy is unnecessary.

[Skizoo]

Here's a vid Steve shot last April at keystone, conditions were slushy, and I was pretty fatigued by this time of day.. It's a short clip & I'm the first skier, it's the most recent vid I have. I believe I was skiing the TT's



Mods: If appropriate, please move this to the MA forum

Dave

[Max_501]

Harald keeps telling us to put weight on the inside/uphill ski on the LTE before the transition.

RTE (release, transfer, engage) - yes, it may involve putting weight on the uphill ski but it may not be much in a high energy turn.

That means there is some action in the quadriceps. Whether that can be done without extending that leg at all I don't know.

No extension needed or desired!

[h.harb]

Transferring in transition to the LTE doesn't involve an extension. It's simply the Super Phantom. If you don't you are wedging, most PSIA instructors wedge they don't parallel ski. That is because they have to use a push off, they developed it through the wedge progression and wedge christie, and can't get out of it. Look at Mike Rogan's articles, he wedges out of the turns. Not efficient, not high end skiing and not much fun..

[Skizoo]

Transferring in transition to the LTE doesn't involve an extension. It's simply the Super Phantom. If you don't you are wedging, most PSIA instructors wedge they don't parallel ski. That is because they have to use a push off, they developed it through the wedge progression and wedge christie, and can't get out of it. Look at Mike Rogan's articles, he wedges out of the turns. Not efficient, not high end skiing and not much fun..

One of the things I've been working on this season, is when I shift weight to the uphill ski in the transition, I've been really trying to focus on staying on the uphill ski's LTE as long as I can, so I'm pretty confident I am not wedging into my turns.. I think a lot of what I'm feeling has to do with holding that former free foot on it's LTE as long as possible. It's a very different feel. I feel my use of the SP has improved a lot by focusing on this, and my skiing has been far more consistent in the variable conditions we've had in the east so far this season.. the proof will be when I get some skilled eyes to offer feedback.

I have no desire to ski like Rogan Been there done that!

[h.harb]

We have identified 5 categories of extension. Even if you are not extending off the old stance big toe edge, you maybe extending at the other leg and at different times in the turn development. Any time you extend, tipping stops, leaning begins and balance is lost.

[blackthorn]

This is my take on it, but I stand to be corrected.

Seeking to avoid "pushing off" the snow is one of the fundamentals of PMTS and one of the hardest to conceive. Some of this has to do with the terminology about what is meant when other words are used including extension, of which there are many types. I think that most people intuitively understand what is meant by the term "pushing off" - or at least get it after a brief explanation. There may be a better term but many others seem to lead to confusion, in terms of what one is trying to describe.
If you find you are needing to push off, then there will be other things happening in your skiing that will need to be worked on.
It might be used as an important internal clue provided it is properly understood, but describing it exactly in a few words would be challenging.

So - we can extend but we don't push off. We flex to release, and don't push off. In doing MA, we can see extension and it may be very difficult to determine if there is any pushing off.