Steep skiing

[Matt]

The Deslauriers brothers' book 'Ski the Whole Mountain" describes and differentiates between a pedal hop and pedal carve turn as far as I can recall. I have a copy, but not accessible to me just at present. It is a great book, sadly out of print, but I did manage to purchase it second hand on Amazon last year.

They wrote an article about this that appeared in Skiing, Mar-Apr 2001, which may contain the same material: http://books.google.com/books?id=90ofum ... rn&f=false

Great find

[theorist]

Great find

Thanks. Some of the language the DesLauriers brothers use may not correspond to how PMTS would describe the underlying mechanics. But I'll leave it to the PMTS experts to decide if a "translation" is needed.

[h.harb]

Basic PMTS Movement applications work everywhere, whether it's steeps, chutes or avalanche debris: tipping, flexing and releasing with those movements, create good results.

[jbotti]

Very few people know that you have switched to K2 from Head mostly based on the superior construction of the skis

Everything is great about that shot except the logo!

[theorist]

Basic PMTS Movement applications work everywhere, whether it's steeps, chutes or avalanche debris: tipping, flexing and releasing with those movements, create good results.

Yes, but the language that the DesLauriers article uses may not properly capture/explain those mechanics -- for instance where they say "you...pivot them [the skis] into the fall line", rather than that the skis come around as a result of the underlying mechanics of flexing/releasing/tipping -- which is why I wanted to raise the caution. I'm not referring to what they're doing, but rather to how they're describing it.

[h.harb]

Right, the Deslaurier brothers, used the old, PSIA classic language before I could get back to them about the accurate movement language. Which they did afterward adopt. However, if you know PMTS understanding, and use it rather than their language, you can still learn from their approach.

I hated those K2 skis, I think they were 100cm wide. But still managed to get some good photos with them. Very difficult skis to bend into arcs and make turns on. Head skis are much easier to ski and actually give you more performance.

[Rod9301]

Harold, you dont feel that on steep, hard snow, you need to actively push off the uphill ski, while at the same time retract the downhill ski and tip it ok lte?

[Max_501]

In Ski the Whole Mountain the focus is on retracting the feet rather than extension of the inside leg. The hop off the uphill leg is just enough to get the skis off the snow.

[theorist]

Rod, the PMTS experts will correct me if I'm wrong but, as I understand it, the more pop you can get out of your skis at the end of the turn (where the pop results from implementing the underlying PMTS mechanics), the less work you need to do to release your skis on extreme steeps, which makes your skiing much more efficient. Ideally, the float you get from the pop would be sufficient to release both skis on its own, thus obviating the need for a hop. However, as the terrain goes from steep to extremely steep, you reach a point where the pop alone isn't sufficient, so you need to add, as Max said, just enough hop off the uphill leg to release the skis. However, even though you're forced to add the hop, the amount of work you need to do to create it is far less if you've already got a pop to start with -- you're just adding to the releasing motion created by the pop, rather than creating the release from the hop alone (which would be a lot of work!).

For this reason, if you can get into a rhythm of linked turns on the steeps, it's much less work than if you have to stop and start.

You might find this thread helpful: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3994

[h.harb]

I've skied many 50 degree slopes and even the plus 50 degree left gully on Tuckerman's at 6am, on hard crust. If you try to stand up on your uphill ski on that steep and slippery a slope, what happens if it slips? You are in for a long fast ride between the rocks. Just holding on the LTE, is more that enough to get the lower ski to release, is much more desirable and reassuring. If you extend or try to stand up on the LTE, you also have to come back down, which only serves to make the next engagement late and harder on the edge set. That's just not my idea of a bullet proof approach to really extreme, steep, narrow situations. It might feel good on groomers, however when you get up on a 50 degree narrow chute there isn't much room for messing around.

[theorist]

Actually, as I was typing that, I was wondering whether one might want to just use a brushed carve (which is what I assume you're describing) instead of a "pedal carve" on extremely steep terrain. Is the determining factor the snow conditions, where on hard snow the brushed carve is the preferred approach, but where in soft, heavy snow -- where it might be less work if you can bring your skis up on top of the snow -- the pedal carve could be helpful? Or is it when the available corridor is so narrow there's not enough room for a brushed carve?

To just ask the question directly: When would you want to use a pedal carve (i.e., with the added hop off the uphill leg) instead of a brushed carve?

[Max_501]

As the pitch increases do the drills in Chapter 4 of ACBAES 2 get harder or easier?

[theorist]

As the pitch increases do the drills in Chapter 4 of ACBAES 2 get harder or easier?

It's hard to recall, since I have only one season doing these drills, and they were one among many. My best guess is they were easier on blue terrain than green (that the pitch helped), but I'd need to get back out on the snow to know for sure. How they would feel on a 50-degree slope, I have no idea.

[geoffda]

To just ask the question directly: When would you want to use a pedal carve (i.e., with the added hop off the uphill leg) instead of a brushed carve?

In the theoretical world of internet forums, the answer is that anyone who knows how to carve a turn would seek to carve all of their turns regardless of terrain. The Deslauriers introduce three different points on the pedal continuum and suggest that you carve as much as you can based on terrain. In that model, full pedal hops would be reserved for terrain in which it is too narrow to make a turn otherwise. In the real world, however, 50 degrees with significant exposure and firm snow is mind numbing, leg shaking territory where you can be seriously injured or die if you make a mistake. There is no "what would the best turn be here," there is only survival, one turn at a time. Mentally, even releasing a ski is extremely challenging and only skiers that have worked their way up to that kind of terrain will be able to do it. Everyone else is going to try to use a full jump turn (pedal or otherwise) because the situation is simply too frightening to do otherwise. Hopefully their edges hold...

[theorist]

Thanks geoffda, great clarification. I see the big picture now: On extreme terrain, releasing the skis, as Harald described, is a more reliable approach (particularly on firm snow) -- but not everyone has the skill and comfort to do this. So for those that don't, the DesLauriers offer a continuum of three more accessible tactics.

For a given terrain and conditions, as your skill increases, you can move more towards releasing. Likewise for a given skill level, as the terrain difficulty increases, you may be forced to move more towards hopping.