Steep skiing

[h.harb]

Peddle "direction changes", because they aren't turns, are just short of jumping. The only time to use them is when there is no room and the snow is deep or heavy. And the reason is that because a releasing ski needs gravity to take it to the falline, you won't get that help at these speeds or rate of decent, in these conditions. Less than 1/2 of 1 % of skiers should even consider this skiing and even fewer are capable of it or should attempt it. As Geoffda wrote earlier, if you are asking these questions, you shouldn't go there. I think there are more relevant discussions about skiing that could be pursued than this one by the forum.

[DougD]

Theorist, if you don't have the skills to release and carve, if hopping is all you can do, you shouldn't be on such terrain at all. Read Harald's post just above this one, then read the following true story.

I've skied many 50 degree slopes and even the plus 50 degree left gully on Tuckerman's at 6am, on hard crust. If you try to stand up on your uphill ski on that steep and slippery a slope, what happens if it slips? You are in for a long fast ride between the rocks. Just holding on the LTE, is more that enough to get the lower ski to release, is much more desirable and reassuring. If you extend or try to stand up on the LTE, you also have to come back down, which only serves to make the next engagement late and harder on the edge set. That's just not my idea of a bullet proof approach to really extreme, steep, narrow situations. It might feel good on groomers, however when you get up on a 50 degree narrow chute there isn't much room for messing around.

Ditto, on all points.

I've also skied Left Gully at Tucks in hard (actually bulletproof) conditions. It was 28F and raining, typical Mt. Washington weather.

We didn't have crampons. The "snow" was so hard that repeated boot toe kicks could only make a 1cm deep dent for the next step up. The 50 degree lip stopped us cold, very cold, but we got to just beneath it. It's ~40 degrees and ~100 feet above the crux of the chute, which is two rock walls about 15-20 feet apart. From there the gully widens out and descends at about 35-30 degrees for ~900 feet, ending in a jumble of exposed boulders. In bulletproof conditions, a fall above the crux will bounce you off one of the side walls and/or funnel you into the boulder field at the bottom. Falling is a really bad option.

Both my buddies were "hop" turners. One was a PSIA LIII with a linebacker's build and strength... a far stronger skier than I, given his choice of techniques. He clicked in, yelled "Here I go!" and hopped very athletically into his first turn... which was also his last. On landing, his binding gave way and the ski, which was bent into a big arc from the force of his landing, twanged like an arrow into the gully wall. He slammed face down (fortunately) and began the slide for life.

Buddy #2 never even got into his skis. He slipped while EXTENDING on his uphill ski while trying to click in, and began his own slide for life. Unlike #1, he happened to land on his back (lack of CA and CB?!).

At the beginning of the climb I'd advised my companions to remove their pole straps, leaving them free for a ski-pole self-arrest if needed. (Thanks to Lito T-F for that lifesaving tip.) They ignored me.

After falling, both guys flew threw the crux, starfishing as they accelerated on the 40-35 degree ice. After ~800 feet, #1 managed to slow himself with fingernails and boot toes just enough to stop a few dozen yards above the boulders. #2, spinning on his back with poles flailing at the ends of their straps, was helpless. He stopped when he hit the rocks. By good luck, he "only" suffered a severe ankle sprain (which made it great fun to hike down 2,500 VF with our 50-60lb packs).

After both guys stopped sliding and waved that they weren't dead, I clicked in and skied gingerly down, with VERY quiet feet and movements. I slipped once but Lito's ski pole trick worked perfectly. I only slid 20-30 feet before stopping, and didn't lose a ski.

After that I actually had NO trouble skiing the conditions. Bulletproof snow at 30-35 degrees is actually quite skiable. As racers say, you can do anything on it but stop! I actually skied around picking up my buddies' scattered bits of gear, flinging it downslope ahead of me.

This was a few years before Harald's first PMTS magazine articles, but I knew (and had seen with my own eyes) that hopping one's skis around was not a viable technique in those conditions.

[Rod9301]

I agree that 30-40 degree firm snow is best skied with your skis on the snow.


However, there's nothing in your post to support that.
#1 's bindings prereleased, which can happen in many conditions, and#2 couldn't put his skis on.

[jbotti]

As a moderator I have created a new spot where everyone here can go and talk about their amazing skiing feats and exploits. This is the ideal spot to talk about skiing ultra steep ultra tight couloirs and pretty much all no fall zone skiing. In depth discussion of the best techniques used in this terrain are not only acceptable but wished for as well. Follow this link:

www.epicski/f/

In all seriousness, I don't think it should need to be said again that there are "more relevant discussions about skiing that could be pursued than this one by the forum."

[go_large_or_go_home]

This is the wrong forum to be on if you measure your skiing skills by the steepness of the slope or the narlyness of the couloir. I have been there and have used that measurement - just look at my username....I now strive for technical excellence, safe in the knowledge that using this system, I can ski anything...

Fat skis are for the unskilled - unless of course you are the reincarnation of shane mcconkey....

If you really want to know what it is to be an awesome skier, follow the progression, do the drills and then look back and you will see how the topic of this discussion really is....pointless.....

[semnoz]

They wrote an article about this that appeared in Skiing, Mar-Apr 2001, which may contain the same material: http://books.google.com/books?id=90ofum ... rn&f=false

Thanks for the link.

Right, the Deslaurier brothers, used the old, PSIA classic language before I could get back to them about the accurate movement language. Which they did afterward adopt. However, if you know PMTS understanding, and use it rather than their language, you can still learn from their approach.

If you click on the link and scroll up there's also a technique article that you wrote in the very same issue. Ironic?

[semnoz]

I'll continue to beat this dead horse.

Rod (and others with similar comments/questions), you're confounding survival technique with good skiing technique. As has already been mentioned, no one will argue with using a hop turn or side-slipping for the purposes of survival in no fall or dicey terrain - why are you even asking? As has also been alluded to, I doubt any PMTS instructors will beat you over the head with a ski pole if you use a wedge while waiting in a crowded lift line.

However, once on steep terrain that is skiable where it's possible to "safely" link turns, whatever the pitch (45°, 50°) PMTS technique is the far superior choice (to be learned on safe, mellow terrain of course).

[jclayton]

Should be www.epicski/W/T/F

Does it still exist ? And still produce mind boggling confusion ?

[HeluvaSkier]

Yes and yes.

[Rod9301]

I am not confusing good technique with survival skiing.

This kind of terrain is what I like to ski.

My original question is how compatible are pedal turns with pmts.

Perhaps a better question is what is an efficient way to do the turn?

[Rod9301]

Maybe another question us, does pmts stop being useful above 45-50 degrees?

[jbotti]

I've skied many 50 degree slopes and even the plus 50 degree left gully on Tuckerman's at 6am, on hard crust. If you try to stand up on your uphill ski on that steep and slippery a slope, what happens if it slips? You are in for a long fast ride between the rocks. Just holding on the LTE, is more that enough to get the lower ski to release, is much more desirable and reassuring. If you extend or try to stand up on the LTE, you also have to come back down, which only serves to make the next engagement late and harder on the edge set. That's just not my idea of a bullet proof approach to really extreme, steep, narrow situations. It might feel good on groomers, however when you get up on a 50 degree narrow chute there isn't much room for messing around.

Rod, read and learn. When your PMTS technique is strong enough it will take you anywhere you dare to ski and it will be much safer than what you are doing now. But it takes years of hard work to master the movements at that level. There isn't one magic trick that you are going to learn online on this forum. If that's what you want to do (dedicate yourself to learning PMTS movements and owning them in all terrain), this is a good place to start and there is lots of info on how you can advance and learn faster. If you are after something else you are wasting your time here.

[NoCleverName]

Maybe another question us, does pmts stop being useful above 45-50 degrees?

PMTS also stopped being useful on a 5-10 degree slope skiing between two barb-wire fences about 1 meter apart. In a group. .

I think the operative word is "it depends". I think the feeling here is that PMTS will "last longer" than other schemes before you have to revert to the what-ever-it-takes method. So the better you know PMTS, the more situations that can be conquered by technique rather than athleticism. Within my vastly more limited mastery of PMTS, I find this to be true.

[theorist]

I know Harald said not to talk about it, but since the discussion has continued nevertheless:
I typically don't do pedal turns. They're too much work, and they don't feel like skiing. The reason I asked about them, however, is that I can initiate turns with no extension up to, say, easier double blacks. But on the really steep stuff, certainly at 50+ degrees, some extension creeps in that I've not been able to eliminate. I don't want to give up the steeps, because they've been a routine part of my skiing for the past two decades. I'm comfortable there and I really enjoy them. But I also don't want to reinforce non-PMTS habits. When Harald said the DesLauriers "designed their version of the Peddle Turn around and based on PMTS movements," I thought maybe these would be a bridge that would enable me to keep skiing terrain I love without interfering with my progression in PMTS. But I now see that's not the case. I think I'll just instead have to make my retraction more aggressive. I do respectfully disagree with the assertion that, because I ask questions to improve my tactics for the steeps -- terrain I've been skiing comfortably for many years -- it means I suddenly don't belong there.

And more broadly, isn't this a question of general application to the forums? I.e., forget about the extreme steeps, and just consider the general issue of someone that can flex to release on a certain level of terrain, but that reverts to extension when moving to "next higher level" of steepness (whatever that may be for them). When that happens, what is it that they're missing? And to overcome this, don't they need to combine practice on the easier terrain with repeated testing of themselves on the slightly harder terrain?

[theorist]

I know Harald said not to talk about it, but since the discussion has continued nevertheless ....

I typically don't do pedal turns. They're too much work, and they don't feel like skiing. The reason I asked about them, however, is that I can initiate turns with no extension up to, say, easier double blacks. But on the really steep stuff, certainly at 50+ degrees, some extension creeps in that I've not been able to eliminate. I don't want to give up the steeps, because they've been a routine part of my skiing for the past two decades. I'm comfortable there and I really enjoy them. But I also don't want to reinforce non-PMTS habits. When Harald said the DesLauriers "designed their version of the Peddle Turn around and based on PMTS movements," I thought maybe these would be a bridge that would enable me to keep skiing terrain I love without interfering with my progression in PMTS. But I now see that's not the case (and I'm happy about it, because I really didn't want to start doing pedal turns).

So what does someone do in that case? More pop + more aggressive retraction? To address Harald's concern about relevance, I think this could be a question of general application to the forums. I.e., forget about the extreme steeps, and just consider the general issue of someone that can flex to release on a certain level of terrain, but can't seem to avoid a little extension when moving to "next higher level" of steepness (whatever that may be for them--could be in going from blues to blacks). Surely that's not unique to me. And to overcome this, doesn't one need to combine practice on the easier terrain with occasional testing of one's self on the slightly harder terrain? I do respectfully disagree with the assertion that, because I ask questions to improve my tactics for the steeps -- terrain I've been skiing comfortably for many years -- it means I suddenly don't belong there.