PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby Max_501 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:19 am

Matt wrote:That is true. However I have slightly larger CA RoM when I have some CB than when I do not. Might be a personal thing.


There is no biomechanical reason that I know of for this difference. However, a moot point since CB should already be there.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby h.harb » Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:03 pm

If you are interested, I'll explain why, even though if you know why, it doesn't create more of the movement you want, you still have to do it.

As you Counter Act your torso, it can bend forward in a side ways direction relative to the skis, over the outside ski and more toward the falline. This gives the impression of more Counter Balance. However to put the finer point on it, true C.B. is a lateral movement where the lower iliac crest is pulled down and in, toward the femur; and the upper iliac crest is raised or lifted . This movement for many people has limits. The spine can also assist, by curving or tilting, but I often see all spine C.B. and this in the long run isn't the answer.
HH quote: There is no reason you should have more range of CA when you CB, from that perspective they are totally different axes and joints. Most world cup skiers CA before applying CB.
Trying for more CB may get you to move to a CAed relationship and that is what some skiers sense.


Ted Ligety if you study his skiing closely, he has very little CB until he counter acts and bends his torso forward and his inside knee comes up. Ted Ligety also has feet like no one else, so he can ski this way with his outside hip raised. This is why you don't copy some racers, you need to learn your own set of strengths. This is why you also don't coach kids to ski like Ligety. It's almost impossible. Just as you would not coach anyone to ski like Bode.

However you can teach everyone to ski like the Austrians. Look at Fenninger, Hirscher, Matt, their top skiers all ski with the same technique, and it a basic solid technique not too many weird things going on there.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby theorist » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:42 am

Max_501 wrote:
theorist wrote:...(since only in a locked carve would you be able to make the skis resist the high forces needed to get high angles)...


Was there something in the books or on this forum that led you to this conclusion?

Sorry for the delayed reply, but I temporarily wasn't able to access my account.

When I wrote that I was thinking of skiing on groomers, where you'd need a lot of centripetal force back from the skis to keep your hips up off the snow at high angles, like the 2nd pic of Bode here: http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2013/ ... style.html -- but yes, in powder, if you allow your hips to be on (and thus supported by) the snow, I guess you could get these angles even though the snow is breaking away (though, as Harald said above, there wouldn't be a point to doing this in powder: "it's not about the high angles in off piste skiing anyway").

But, as to my understanding that brushies inherently involve lower stance ski angles than edge-locked turns, here's where this was coming from: I was recalling SkierSynergy's and Harald's detailed posts at http://pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=970, in which they said the way you make a brushed carve, rather than its equivalent edge-locked variant, is you still tip the inside foot strongly, but hold back on the engagement of the stance foot, keeping it at a reduced edge angle. With this reduced angle, the ski won't grip as well, thus allowing the outward drift that is the signature of a brushed carve:
Harald: "A PMTS brushed carve is just a locked carve without the commitment to lay the ski over far enough to lock the side of the ski (edge) into the snow. The mechanics are the same."
SkierSynergy: "Drift can be achieved when the angle of the stance ski is less than the angle of the free foot ski."

So while you can certainly do a shallow edge-locked carve, or a brushie with stronger angles, it is my understanding that, directly comparing a edge-locked carve to its equivalent brushed variant, the latter would, by its very nature, have lower stance ski angles.

Also, I'm not clear on this, but I gather one can either brush the entire turn, or can decide to shift to an edge-lock at some point -- that this is up to the skier. Is that true, or is the brushing typically only done during the engagement phase?

[I just re-read the Essentials chapters on countering, and still don't understand why a brushie requries more countering ROM than an equivalent edge-locked carve. But since Essentials says "Upper body counter increases as edge angles increase", I thought I should first clarify my understanding of the relationship between a brushed turn and edge angles, which is what motivated my questions on this.]

h.harb wrote:Here in two of these I'm on 95mm skis and I have one run on You Tube on a steep groomer, definitely not locked carve, with the Rock and Roll skis, but there is a drift in the arcs.

It appears to me the drift you're getting here isn't because you're holding back on the angulation of the stance ski, as you'd do in a brushie. From these pics, it looks like you're cranking both skis (as you would in an edge-locked turn), but getting drift just because the snow is soft. (?) [Edit: I'm assuming what defines a brushie is the movement (holding back the stance ski), rather than the outcome (drift).]

Also, just curious, but in the first pic are you on the Mya 7's?
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby geoffda » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:27 pm

A true brushed carve is a bit of a mystery because most of us do it without thinking about it. Yes, you can get a brush by differential tipping. Yes, you can get a brush by holding back on the commitment at the top of the turn by relaxing your ankles so you don't immediately lock the ski on edge. In either case, once the ski starts brushing, you can use the same tipping movements that you would with an edged carve to generate large angles and bring the ski around. When done this way, brushed turns will be very energetic and without looking at the tracks it is generally hard to tell that the turns are brushed.

With PMTS, the same movements are used for every turn we make. Every turn is carved. The only question is whether we lay down pencil tracks or a wider track (or some combination--even in the same turn). In most respects, trying to differentiate between brushed carved and edged carves is a red-herring. If you have the right movements, you should be able do any type of carved turn you like. While we don't normally talk about outcomes, because the movements are the same for all carved turns, we would identify a brushed carved turn by its track. As I mentioned above, when people are cranking brushed carve turns, the track is often the only thing you have to differentiate because you can't see the subtle differences in ankle tension inside the ski boot. Depending on where you are in relation to the skier you are watching, sometimes it is possible to see the lateral displacement of the skis. Sometimes you can tell based on ski performance. But a master will always keep you guessing.

It is certainly possible to move from brushing to edged carve and back again, but this requires a great degree of control and precision. If you are skilled enough, it is possible to do this at any point in the turn. Also, engagement is not a turn phase. Engagement starts when we move onto new edges and continues throughout the turn as we keep increasing angles until we are ready to release. We don't really talk about turn phases in PMTS, though we will point out places in the arc where certain things should be happening. The idea of turn phases really isn't helpful. As the right movements develop, so does the appropriate timing.

In order to perform a brushed carve, you must have the ability to release the old turn, transfer balance to the outside ski, and engage edges into the new turn with little-toe edge tipping. Big-toe tippers generally cannot brush, which is why the idea of a brushed carve is not at all understood in traditional teaching circles. Well executed brushed carves can be done such that they are simultaneously executed very slowly yet energetically. This is very hard to do because of the level of precision required. It is actually harder to do this than to do edged carved turns, which is why it is a good litmus test of skiing ability.

More counteracting ROM is required in brushed carves because the ski is displacing laterally. Because you don't have that platform of grip to balance against as you move into the arc, your upper body will want to rotate into the turn and it will try to unwind if your countering is weak. If this happens, the rotation of your femurs will cause the tails of the skis to wash out. However, if you can counteract that rotation while tipping aggressively (and you have to counteract HARD in the brushed carves because you don't have that platform) then the skis will bite and snap around. The result will be a very high energy finish to the turn.

With PMTS tipping, angles are not generated by dumping the hip in to ride the edge. Instead, we begin tipping by inverting the free foot to roll onto the little-toe edge. This brings the ankle closer to the snow, which causes the knee and hip to follow. While the hip must move laterally inside the turn, the primary direction of movement is down. PMTS tipping results in angles that establish strong balance over the outside ski. When your angles place you over the ski, you do not need to push against it to stay in balance so the lateral displacement from a high-angled brushed turn isn't disruptive.

Not pushing against your skis is a key concept in PMTS and it is a very foreign one. Almost everyone wants that feeling of "standing on your edges." It feels very secure and you really feel like you are bending the ski. But searching for that feeling will lead you astray. Grip and ski performance actually come from tipping; from continuously increasing the angle of the ski throughout the turn instead of establishing an angle and parking. Very few skiers outside of elite racers have any concept of what tipping is or how it affects ski performance. Most of the aforementioned elite racers just do it, but they don't really understand what they are doing. This is what PMTS leads to, but it takes considerable work for the average person to develop the Essentials movements to the level that they can begin to build tipping (and therefore understanding of tipping) into their skiing. This is why so many from the traditional ski instruction world don't get PMTS. They see the basic movements, but they have no comprehension of what the movements actually mean in the context of elite skiing.
Last edited by geoffda on Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:06 pm, edited 17 times in total.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby h.harb » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:59 pm

Well done Geoffda, explaining real skiing, so that traditionally trained skiers/instructors can understand is a real art. Let me add, few tradition ski instructors really carve a ski, so they may have a different idea from our understanding of what carving is. Also, I have rarely seem a traditionally trained or PSIA certified instructor ski a truly brushed carve turn. Even most of the racers I train, can't make a brushed carve turn at first. In fact, it requires a higher level of movement abilities before it can be done correctly, without a big slid and and edge set finish.

Many TTS instructors try to interpret PMTS with their ATS, American Teaching System movement understanding, this is almost impossible as the ATS and other forms of PSIA dogma don't address ski turns in the same way or create a ski turn as PMTS does. It's apples and oranges.

We have discussed this many times on the forum. I hear this all the time when I meet PSIA instructors. The first thing they say is, "I really like some of the things you do in PMTS, or more likely I hear, "I like some of your stuff". That is an insult. This is my first signal that they have no idea of how the mechanics or development of movements works. You can't just layer some of PMTS over ATS and make it work. ATS has far too many gross movements in it that need reversing and compensations for it, to be fixed by a few PMTS tricks!

Tipping is the key movement learned in PMTS, it's not steering and it's not rotary movements, it's tipping your feet and boots to control your ski angles. PSIA think they teach this and they make a mess out of it and no one gets it. A brushed care turn is all about tipping ability. No wonder on Epic they say there is no such thing, because they don't have the movements to do it, so over there, there is no such thing as a brushed carved turn. And they are proud to prove it with their skiing.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby Basil j » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:54 pm

"'Not pushing against your skis is a key concept in PMTS and it is a very foreign one. Almost everyone wants that feeling of "standing on your edges." It feels very secure and you really feel like you are bending the ski. But searching for that feeling will lead you astray. Grip and ski performance actually come from tipping; from continuously increasing the angle of the ski throughout the turn instead of establishing an angle and parking"
Geoff this is so eloquently laid out and remains in my mind the most difficult piece of unlearning from Traditional skiing that I have battled since evolving to PMTS. I could never quite verbalize it, but you did it for me beautifully here. The feeling of standing on that outside edge is hammered into our heads through traditional instruction. How many times have we heard "Load up the ski." in TTS?
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby ToddW » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:06 pm

geoffda wrote: This is what PMTS leads to, but it takes considerable work for the average person to develop the Essentials movements to the level that they can begin to build tipping (and therefore understanding of tipping) into their skiing. This is why so many from the traditional ski instruction world don't get PMTS. [emphasis added]



A quick glance shows that Geoff edited his post 17 times. He must've tweaked it countless other times that the forum software didn't count. This is the same sort of attention to detail and "considerable work" that Geoff is referring to. He exhibits this tightly calibrated focus on snow when he works on his skiing and that's why his skiing has become what it is.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby geoffda » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:31 pm

ToddW wrote:
geoffda wrote: This is what PMTS leads to, but it takes considerable work for the average person to develop the Essentials movements to the level that they can begin to build tipping (and therefore understanding of tipping) into their skiing. This is why so many from the traditional ski instruction world don't get PMTS. [emphasis added]



A quick glance shows that Geoff edited his post 17 times. He must've tweaked it countless other times that the forum software didn't count. This is the same sort of attention to detail and "considerable work" that Geoff is referring to. He exhibits this tightly calibrated focus on snow when he works on his skiing and that's why his skiing has become what it is.


Or you could just say, in writing, like in skiing, I have great difficulty getting things right the first time... :lol:
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby Max_501 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:04 pm

Geoff did a fantastic job above! I'll add just a few thoughts.

theorist wrote:...but yes, in powder, if you allow your hips to be on (and thus supported by) the snow, I guess you could get these angles even though the snow is breaking away...


Unfortunately the far majority off piste skiing is not in powder so be sure to say skiing powder if you mean powder. Off piste is everything that isn't groomed and the snow is often firm. Finding conditions like these wind packed shots is more likely than finding pow! Note the angles developed in these off piste turns.

Image

Image

theorist wrote:But, as to my understanding that brushies inherently involve lower stance ski angles than edge-locked turns...


To avoid confusion among forum readers please use PMTS terminology, in this case the term is "Brushed Carve". A brushie is a flexible plastic brush that we use during race training in place of gates.

theorist wrote:I was recalling SkierSynergy's and Harald's detailed posts at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=970, in which they said the way you make a brushed carve, rather than its equivalent edge-locked variant, is you still tip the inside foot strongly, but hold back on the engagement of the stance foot, keeping it at a reduced edge angle.


I think I see a potential source of confusion here. Take a look at Jay's statement again but this time focus on the highlighted words...he is talking about a small amount, so small that with expert skiers it can be difficult to see to the untrained eye.

Often this can be achieved by simply relaxing the stance ankle a little (i.e., not try to vigorously evert) while simultaneously continuing to tip the free foot. This flattens the stance ski a bit and it drifts. One can also flex the stance leg a bit and while continuing to tip the free foot ski. This will also flatten the stance ski a bit.


I think that if you follow the progression as presented in the books, with an open mind, all of this will become clear.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby h.harb » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:00 pm

Diana and I have produced an eVideo on this very topic. An eVideo that teaches progressive tipping. It's on our web site.
http://harbskisystems.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=productdetails&virtuemart_product_id=131&virtuemart_category_id=17&Itemid=102
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby HeluvaSkier » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:48 pm

I'll play too... powder angles.

Image
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby Max_501 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:01 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:I'll play too... powder angles.

Image


Nice!

Here's some wussy angles...

Image
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby HeluvaSkier » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:42 pm

Max,
Head should buy that pic from you to put into their ads.

...EDIT: but seriously, turn in the other direction next time to "Motorhead" is oriented properly... jeez. Amateurs. 8)
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby h.harb » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:53 pm

That is a great shot on the Motorheads.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby theorist » Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:39 pm

I'm glad to see you gentlemen are having fun with this 8)

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to post and respond to my questions, but especially to geoffda. I, too, noticed the 17 edits. A post like that takes serious time and effort to write, and I want you to know how much I appreciate it.

I'm reminded of the real generosity of spirit I've found among PMTS students I've met in person, and with whom I've interacted by PM -- last winter I had a chance to do focused two-day training sessions with each of two experienced PMTS students (and also ski for a day with two more), and I thought the effort they put in to helping me learn was extraordinary -- I essentially got four days of private lessons. [And just to be clear, I also did my homework; prior to meeting up with them, I studied all the books and videos, and got in about 20 days with lots of drill practice on beginner terrain.] Anyways, I think your post will help not only me, but also many others that visit the forum to better understand the system.

I also studied Diana's eVideo, which was very helpful and beautifully done. I'll look forward to playing with those drills this winter.

geoffda wrote:While the hip must move laterally inside the turn, the primary direction of movement is down.

While not about brushed carves specifically, this is my favorite part of your post. I found this profound. "Down" is obvious in the transition, but not so much in the belly of the turn. Plus "down" to "more down" gives much better continuity of movement (and is simpler) than "down" to "in."

geoffda wrote:More counteracting ROM is required in brushed carves because the ski is displacing laterally.....

Thanks, this para. was very helpful, and directly addresses my question about ROM.

geoffda wrote:Also, engagement is not a turn phase. Engagement starts when we move onto new edges and continues throughout the turn as we keep increasing angles until we are ready to release. We don't really talk about turn phases in PMTS, though we will point out places in the arc where certain things should be happening. The idea of turn phases really isn't helpful.

Yes, it's important I learn to use all the terminology properly (thanks also to Max for the correction about "brushies"). Here I should have said "engagement phase of the transition" (I'm recalling Harald's phrasing at http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/). But I'm afraid I'm confused when you say "we don't really talk about turn phases...", since I've seen the term used frequently, essentially as a synonym for "portion": search.php?keywords=phase&terms=all&author=*harb*&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Max_501 wrote:I think I see a potential source of confusion here. Take a look at Jay's statement again but this time focus on the highlighted words...he is talking about a small amount, so small that with expert skiers it can be difficult to see to the untrained eye.

Yes, I think you hit on it. I was influenced by the subsequent post from Jay, where he talks about Diana maintaining "a radical O-frame quite a ways into the new turn" by strongly hanging back on the edging of the stance ski.

So one obvious application of the brushed carve is to achieve speed control in very steep terrain. I know, as Harald's explained, you don't want to start it as a strong edge-locked turn and then try to back off to a brushed carve. ["I think that reducing edge angle to create brushing in an arc that has begun with a strong commitment to carving is not effective. As a release of edge angle, given the forces that are already in play, to get brushing produces a skid. If brushing is to be effective it has to be progressive from the beginning of the arc. If too much brushing begins, increasing angle to reduce brushing is OK."] I also know you can start as a brushed carve and progressively move towards locking up the edge later. Finally, I see you can adjust your speed control by how much you relax the stance ankle and/or flex the stance leg, which adjusts the edge angle, which adjusts the drift. But, bottom line, if you want to control your speed in the steeps, is the best (or usual) tactic to focus most of the flattening/drift in the high C, and then allow the ski to hook up in the low C (so you can capture the ski's energy to float you into the next turn) (and, particularly in deep snow, as you wrote in last year's off-piste techniques/tactics thread, develop "the 'pop' needed to release/float the skis from the snow"), as opposed to distributing the drift over the whole arc?
Last edited by theorist on Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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