PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:49 pm

theorist wrote:Heluva, good luck working on your hips. I spent a year doing daily work to increase internal rotation, mostly on my right, without much movement, until a month ago when they finally started to let go.


Thanks. The strange thing I found was I had the necessary RoM, but lacked the ability to make it active unless my feet were securely locked into a carved (not brushed) turn.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby h.harb » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:57 pm

Gregg, now you can understand why all this poor PSIA instructors out there trying to ski with leg rotation and steering are having no success.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:10 pm

h.harb wrote:Gregg, now you can understand why all this poor PSIA instructors out there trying to ski with leg rotation and steering are having no success.


Hey - I'm content to let them! They will never ski like we can with their current approach.

...But yes, as soon as I lose CA, everything unwinds and the only remaining choice is rotation/pushing (bad, no matter how refined it may appear to some :| ). Can't get to the next level that way.

Max_501 got me pretty motivated last season... basically what that means is I want to own this so I never have to struggle to do run after run after run (after run after run after run) of angry mothers ever again. :lol: I'm hoping that if I nail it on my first try he won't make me do them anymore. Yes Max... I know I'm wishful thinking, but one can always hope. :mrgreen:
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby theorist » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:56 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:
theorist wrote:Heluva, good luck working on your hips. I spent a year doing daily work to increase internal rotation, mostly on my right, without much movement, until a month ago when they finally started to let go.


Thanks. The strange thing I found was I had the necessary RoM, but lacked the ability to make it active unless my feet were securely locked into a carved (not brushed) turn.


Does this sound reasonable?:

You naturally wouldn't require as much hip RoM in a brushed carve, since the ski angles would be less than in a locked carve. So I'm assuming what you meant is that, when you're in a brushed carve, you can't access even the relatively lesser amount of RoM needed. I.e., the conundrum is that you can access the large RoM need in a locked carve, but not the relatively smaller RoM needed for a brushed carve.

In that case, I would guess there's two possible explanations:

1) In a locked carve, the ski is harder to disturb, and can thus apply more torque to the leg as you move into counter, thereby enabling you to access more of your RoM. [Maybe akin to the difference between passive and active RoM?]

2) We tend to tighten up when our platform becomes less stable, and a brushie is effectively a less stable platform than a locked carve.

So either (1) your hips are tight for both carved turns and brushies, but you get more ski torque from the carved turns, thus enabling you to overcome the tightness; or (2) because of the less stable platform, your rotators are actually more tight in the brushies. In either instance, perhaps the solution would be to try to achieve greater relaxation of the rotators in the brushies.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby HeluvaSkier » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:48 pm

No. A brushed carve require MORE control of the pelvis and cannot be done properly without mastering CA and using CB in unison with tipping.

Regarding 1 and 2. I ski the majority of my turns on ice using race skis. I'm very comfortable in that environment. I can use the torque from the arc and stable platform to CA when I have to, but it isn't active enough. When I'm outside of my comfort zone, it is glaringly obvious that I need to work on it.

I think I'm in the right place physically and mentally to tackle it this season though. Max and Harald have both been a huge help in the diagnosis and path to take to fix it.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby theorist » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:03 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:No. A brushed carve require MORE control of the pelvis and cannot be done properly without mastering CA and using CB in unison with tipping.

Actually, that's exactly the idea I was trying to communicate: in a brushed carve the platform's less stable (skis are arcing and slipping at the same time), so your pelvis has to exert more control, and hence you might be tightening up more, thus reducing your ability to access your RoM.

Separately, I wasn't saying the brushed carve required less control, just less RoM, because the ski angles are less.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby HeluvaSkier » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:08 pm

theorist wrote:
HeluvaSkier wrote:No. A brushed carve require MORE control of the pelvis and cannot be done properly without mastering CA and using CB in unison with tipping.
Separately, I wasn't saying the brushed carve required less control, just less RoM, because the ski angles are less.


It requires much more RoM too. I should have included that in my original post.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby theorist » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:14 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:
theorist wrote:
HeluvaSkier wrote:No. A brushed carve require MORE control of the pelvis and cannot be done properly without mastering CA and using CB in unison with tipping.
Separately, I wasn't saying the brushed carve required less control, just less RoM, because the ski angles are less.


It requires much more RoM too. I should have included that in my original post.


Ah, that's interesting! I don't want to take up too much of your time, but could you explain why? I thought the amount of pelvic RoM needed for CA and CB was determined by the kind of angles you're getting from your skis, and that you'd get more of the latter in a locked carve (since only in a locked carve would you be able to make the skis resist the high forces needed to get high angles). So there's something important I'm missing here.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby HeluvaSkier » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:19 pm

An easy [extremely simplified way of thinking about it] is that CB relates to tipping and CA relates to the direction of travel of the skis compared to direction of travel of the body. Think about what you are countering with each movement, and what the result of NOT countering is. I don't want this to turn into an Epic discussion so I will leave it at that. All of this detailed extensively in the books and videos.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby jbotti » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:38 pm

If you look at good, high level PMTS skiers they are also producing angles off piste that rival what they produce on piste.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby Max_501 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:09 am

theorist wrote:...(since only in a locked carve would you be able to make the skis resist the high forces needed to get high angles)...


Was there something in the books or on this forum that led you to this conclusion?

See this thread for pics of off piste skiing.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2715
Last edited by Max_501 on Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby Matt » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:32 am

I think you are dropping the inside hip more in the brushed turns.

It is often stated that CA helps CB, but isn't the opposite also true, that CB (from pelvis) helps CA?
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby Max_501 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:53 am

Matt wrote:It is often stated that CA helps CB, but isn't the opposite also true, that CB (from pelvis) helps CA?


CA helps CB because once CA is added we can recruit the abdominals to help with CB. The opposite is not true because the pelvis can rotate around the head of the femur without being level.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby h.harb » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:27 pm

I don't think a locked carve is necessary to get high angles. And it's not about the high angles in off piste skiing anyway, it's about the speed control and turn completion on steep terrain and mixed snow. Here in two of these I'm on 95mm skis and I have one run on You Tube on a steep groomer, definitely not locked carve, with the Rock and Roll skis, but there is a drift in the arcs. You can easily drop the hip into the snow in powder, even if it is giving away under your skis.

Image
In this phase of the arc, CB is not yet needed and isn't present, because there is no edge hold needed, (no pressure) by the falline CB will be ready.

Image
Here you see the skis slightly diverging, this is a sign that inside ski tipping is coming first and it's a strong tendency. Nothing wrong with a diverging skis at the top of the high C, you see this tendency often in World Cup skiing.


Image
This photo just has a great background.
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Re: PMTS Pre-Season Stoke

Postby Matt » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:09 am

Max_501 wrote:
Matt wrote:It is often stated that CA helps CB, but isn't the opposite also true, that CB (from pelvis) helps CA?


CA helps CB because once CA is added we can recruit the abdominals to help with CB. The opposite is not true because the pelvis can rotate around the head of the femur without being level.

That is true. However I have slightly larger CA RoM when I have some CB than when I do not. Might be a personal thing.
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