How stiff should boots be for freeskiing?

[snocat]

A bootfitter put me in the Salomon Course 120 and at my weight it seems too stiff to me, 5'11, 155, 30+ years skiing. The fit is perfect, but I can barely flex it forward at all, at least in the colder temps I've been skiing in. Also the cuff seems higher than other boots I've had, so any forward movement translates right to the tips which want to hook up quick, makes fore aft balance tricky and tends to make me sit back at times. Seems like you wouldn't need a boot this stiff for freeskiing and a bit of a forgiving forward flex is desirable. What do you guys think?

[Max]

I don't know how stiff the Salomon is compared to the Head RS100, but I just love the RS100 for all types of skiing and they are very stiff when its cold out (so stiff that getting them off after a day in the cold is quite a chore).

What's causing you to flex forward into the boot?

[snocat]

These are 120 flex and I believe the RS100 is 100 flex, so these are a bit stiffer. Mostly in rougher snow and some types of varied terrain where fore aft balance becomes more tricky I notice there's vey little leeway for fore/aft movement without it transmitting right to the skis, especially any forward movement to the tips. I was on the Technica XT17's last year and don't remember this being a problem at all, and also demoed the Head S12, Salomon Pro model and Rossi Bandit 1 which are all 95 flex and they all seemed fine, although the snow was softpack and pretty fogiving that day. But I never noticed fore aft balance issues being a problem until I got these boots seems like, just stayed centered and if my weight varied a bit either way in different snow conditions, didn't seem to be a problem. I do like the lateral stiffness of the boots though.

Also have skied with Peter a few times and he had me ski with the buckles undone and it seemed really easy, course that was just on the groomers, but also noticed he skis with his buckles undone a lot of the time. Another thing that got me wondering if I need a boot this stiff.

[Kirtland]

I personally like the Atomic Free ride boots which are a model or two down than the competition boots . They are softer for and aft with the same stiffness laterally. There are times I wish it were stiffer when I'm trying to run gates or make tighter carved turns on hard snow. But otherwise they are fine.
As you have stated you can loosen the upper buckles and just use the power strap to get you more flexibility. This works also in powder and in crud. Particularly if you have a ski that wants to dive or if the snow is real inconsistent or it is a whiteout where you cannot see the snow. It allows your ankle to flex more and the tip of the ski to float up with very little resistance.
With junior racers there is often a problem with to stiff of a boot. They may have an adult sized foot but a very slight build. So they cannot flex their ankles. If you can only flex your knees and hips your weight has to go back. So the local ski shops will modify the boots to allow them to flex more. Some models lend themselves to this better than others. So you may be able to take them to a good bootfitter and have them modified. The ideal is probably to have an adjustable forward flex like the old Dynafits which could go all the way from a free hinge to very stiff.

[g. Cassara]

Hey Snocat.
Know exactly what you're feeling...I'm 5'8", 156lbs and purchased a pair of Lange Comp 120 for 2 reasons...1) I could use the cantable soles to adjust for a 2degree left knee alignment and 1/2 degree right and 2)they fit me like a glove.
For me to ski, (and I truely believe in PMTS,) I need to be able to flex the boot to get into my attack or getting small position, where from there I use uphill ski tiping motions, keep the free foot back and then relaxing the knees to the float or flatening of the skis to initiate my next turn. I also like some slight flex in the boot ( it's like a 1" motion) to suck up some terrain in all mountian conditions to provide a degree of forgivness to cover my behind if I mess up.

Like you, I found my boot to stiff, especially when the weather gets really cold. What I did was pulled out both screws in the spine of the boot and that did the trick for me. The other thing I did was dump the boot strap that came with the boot and put on "the Booster Strap". I love the flexability I get to adjust for temperatures and conditions. The boot for me became the perfect all mountain tool.

You might start by adding the Booster Strap and see if that gives you what you want. It in itself might be just enough to do it.

I'm going to be at the Big Sky All Mountain Clinic with Harold, and unless I hear different from the master....I'm doing whats working for me.

[LewBobSki]

Check the thread on Booster Straps and you will get some tips on making your flex more adjustable for changing conditions. I am sure your shop also has some ways that they can soften the flex of your Salomon. Only problem is stiffening them back up in spring, when the snow gets heavy but the plastic gets soft. (I like a stiffer boot in heavy snow, softer in light and fluffy.) The booster strap, because it is elastic, can give you some adjustment. Lew Black

[Harrison]

as stiff as you can possibly get into

[snocat]

The Booster strap's a good idea, I'm not sure if it would work with my boots though, as the strap is riveted to the shell and there doesn't seem to be any place to put it. I'll take a look at it though and see if I can get it to work.

I also pulled the screws out that lock the hinge, that's supposed to take it down to around 110 flex. It was a little softer at room temperature, but in cold temps, could barely tell any difference. I'm sure the boot will soften up somewhat in the spring, but I prefer to get the boot optimized for colder weather as that's what i really like skiing in and spend more time in. The bootfitter said he could cut a V in the back of the shell to soften it, but that would also soften it laterally so didn't recommend it.
Some kind of adjustable flex would be ideal, but right now I agree with GC, a bit of flex to absorb some of the terrain in variable conditons is what I'd like to get.

[g.cassara]

Just wanted to add, the straps on my Lange 120's were also rivited to the shell, and out came the hack saw.
Yes, I put some scratches on my nice new blue boots, but those scratches only affect speeds above 500mph, no problem there.

The holes where the rivits were worked nicely to accomodated the screws that come with Booster Strap.

If you are not comforable performoing the surgery, take them to the shop where you buy the Booster Straps. They should be able to install them for you.
Best!

[LewBobSki]

I drilled out the rivets on my Langes and used bolts to attach the Booster straps. I have a high instep, so the lower buckle strap hits the instep and impedes flex. I solved that problem by grinding 1/8 inch or more off the bottom of the strap with a Dremel tool.

When flexing the boot, look to see if the upper actually rotates forward or if all of the flex comes from compressing the tongue. You may need to do what I did if the upper doesn't move much and seems to be blocked by the lower strap hitting the instep.

Again, your shop should be able to diagnose this. BTW, come spring I may put the stock straps back on so I can stiffen the boot in the warm weather. With bolts instead of rivets holding the strap on, it won't be much trouble to make the swap. Lew Black

[Guest]

These are 120 flex and I believe the RS100 is 100 flex, so these are a bit stiffer.

Apples and oranges.

There is no standard for flex rating boots between brands, only within one brands line. It's not like a DIN setting. Too bad because it would make things a lot easier when shopping for new boots.

There is a good possibility a head 100 flex might feel stiffer or the same as a salomon 120 flex. Where and how the boot flexes will also play into how stiff or soft it feels.

[snocat]

You're right about where and how the boot flexes is an important factor. I played around with my Salomons, and I think one reason it feels so stiff is there is no flex at the top of the cuff. At cold temps the cuff doesn't rotate forward at all and the tongue is firm, there's no give, it presses right against the top of the cuff which is kept from moving by the top buckle.

I haven't actually seen a booster strap as there's no shops here that carry them, but it seems like If I put the booster around the cuff, there's no flex for it to absorb. The only way i can see how it would control flex is if I undo the top buckle completely then it would allow the top part of the cuff to come apart which would give some flex that could be controlled by the elasticity of the booster strap as the tongue presses into it. So I guess that would be a possibility.

[LewBobSki]

Snocat, Your description sounds like I what I experienced. Try unbuckling the lower cuff buckle (3rd from the toe) and see if the cuff rotates. If so you have a problem like mine. The cuff can't move forward because it has bottomed out on the instep of the boot. Grinding off some of the lower cuff where it hits the instep transformed my boots.

They are Lange Comp100's, which are supposed to be pretty soft. They were like bricks in the cold before I modified them. Now they flex really smoothly and progressively. I have a high instep BTW, so the boot has a higher profile over the second buckle from the toe (instep area) than on an average foot. I had even taken out one of the screws in the back that attach the upper to the lower and they still wouldn't flex. Lew

[*SCSA]

Hey snocat,

Are you the same he/she/it I made turns with in JH? If so, meet us in Utah.

[Joseph]

I thought that I would add my two cents about boot flexing and ski bending, for what it's worth.

For those of you who have not met me, those who have can vouch for the fact that I am not big. About 5'7" or 5'8" depending on the shoes. I am also about as skinny as Harrison--"skinny skiers unite!" Yeah I'm in that category and weigh about 130-135lbs depending on whether I remember to eat or not.

My recent ski setup is as follows. I ride a head TiN97 boot. On the sticker on the back. The head flex rating goes from 9.1 in the soft position to 10.1 on hard. I have the front plate installed for added stiffness. The cuff has been riveted twice to help prevent it from flexing. I'm not sure how my boot relates to the range of flex on the back, but I know that it's stiffer than the 10.1 rating. Recently I have been skiing an Elan wood core ski from a few years back in a 188--a big ski for a little guy. It is long and stiff and beefy with a turning radius somewhere in the 20's (it is of the generation of shaped skis that was called parabolic and didn't provide the radius printed on the ski).

If someone asked me to flex my boot indoors, you might get a mouse squeak out of the plastic--but little or no movement.

I've also been skiing on relatively flat terrain here in the east--gentle stuff. However, when I get my body stacked skeletally over my boot and ski, I have been crushing the ski boot and bending that monster of a ski into a very tight railed turn (slalom ski tight). It is certainly not that I'm heavy or strong, the reason that I can flex this boot, is simply that I have learned to put myself in a skeletally strong position over the boot. This flexing of the boot comes as a result of me pulling my feet back under my body. Good racers all do this. It is paramount to succeed in racing that a skier not break at the hip, and when one learns how far they actually have to pull their feet back, they will get a feeling of power from the skis that was never there before. It isn't me who crushes my boots or bends the skis, it's the G-force that builds in the turn as I tip my ski on edge and do not give in at all to the force that is building as the ski bends. That combined with my momentum from the previous turn ends up forcing my boots to flex and my ski to bend. I pull my feet back, until the femur of my stance leg is vertical to my spine--straght up and down. My stance foot ends up behind my hip during the first half of the turn.

If you would like to try and incorporate this into your skiing, read more on Harald's first post on the thread--Moving Fore/aft balance. For you experts out there, this is one of Harald's best posts ever on this forum. There is real skiing power for you if you can access this move.

I have watched Harald, who is not much heavier and a bit taller than I am, absolutely crush his full blown Head RD race boot. I have also had the benefit of skiing behind him often. The femur of his stance leg--no matter how angulated he may get in a turn--is as vertical to his spine as it is when he is standing in the lift line. Watch great racers, like Bode and Herman and you will see the same during the first half of the turn (that is if Bode isn't flying through the air in the first half of the turn). This comes from an active effort of pulling the feet under the body, The result--the ski boot flexes almost effortlessly and certainly passively--even for skinny skier's like Harrison and me.

What I am getting at here, is that I do not consider height and weight quite as important (in the equation of whether a boot is too stiff or soft) as a skiers skill at putting their body in a strong position over the boot. This is a skiing skill that like all other skills in skiing, must be learned. It does not come overnight.

Start by pulling the feet back farther than you ever thought was necessary. Then pull them back some more, and some more--and then more. That should get you to the point where you are just approaching the place where should pull them back more.

Have fun--Joseph