The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby Max_501 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:12 am

Matt wrote:Wouldn't 2.5 hours of drills that do not tax the body followed by 2.5 hours of intensive skiing be better?


If your experience is that drills don't tax the body then you probably aren't doing them correctly! To make a change in your skiing you should be exaggerating when doing the drills. An hour of highly focused correctly performed CA/CB drills and my core is feeling the pain. Flexing with tipping drills and my legs are taking a beating. Fore/aft work is an incredibly taxing workout. PMTS based skiing is a high intensity sport and like any high intensity activity it is hard work. But the payoff is huge and worth every moment of fatigue and frustration (result of seeing video or working with a coach as you rebuild your skiing movements).

Back to the point of John's original post. We often hear from people that say PMTS is so efficient they can rip up the mountain all day, every day, for a week of skiing. What we are saying is that is a myth! Nothing wrong with skiing all day, just understand that performance degrades with fatigue and if you are performing the movements properly fatigue is a given. If you aren't getting fatigued then my bet is the movements aren't being performed correctly or you are just cruising around on easy groomers, which is fine, but not the subject of this thread.
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby BigE » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:13 am

With *high intensity* skiing I'm good for about an hour, maximum 2hrs. Then things degrade horribly. Hitting our hill hard for 10-12 runs is about all I can muster. Then, cruising easily and doing gentle movements. It's during those down periods that I have had some breakthroughs.

Sadly, I start stiff and it takes a while for the body to warm up, so my quality skiing time is greatly reduced. Stretching before skiing is probably a great idea.
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby Max_501 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:38 am

BigE wrote:Then, cruising easily and doing gentle movements. It's during those down periods that I have had some breakthroughs.


First, 'gentle' isn't the word I would use to describe PMTS movements done properly.

Second, how did you confirm the breakthrough?
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby BigE » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:00 am

My daughters tell me what they see.

Gentle refers to the discovery that balance need not be as big a struggle as I was having. Bear in mind, this is on Green.
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby Max_501 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:24 am

BigE wrote:Gentle refers to the discovery that balance need not be as big a struggle as I was having. Bear in mind, this is on Green.


Good job working on Green. Too many refuse to take that simple first step.

Keep in mind that balance is result of proper movements. While traversing across a green slope I have no problem with the image of a gentle movement needed to create balance. But again, that is not what we are talking about in this thread.

We are specifically addressing the myth of ripping all day for a week simply because PMTS is efficient. The movements are efficient but they take real effort if you want to get anywhere near the ideal that Harald demonstrates.
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby BigE » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:53 pm

Thanks Max,

i spent the entire season working on Green. It is only in the last couple weeks that I have ventured to Blue and upwards. I feel i can now learn more on the lighter Blues.

i remember years ago that someone posted about Harald needing to bundle up when going out, because his movements were so efficient that he generated little heat.

File this under myth then?
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby jbotti » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:15 pm

There is a big difference between the amount of energy that Harald expends in a lesson with with Blue/green skier than when he is out cranking turns all morning on his own. The same is true for anyone that is teaching. There is quite a bit of talk/instruction time and the focus is on the students skiing and often it will be on moderate terrain.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby Max_501 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:12 pm

jbotti wrote:There is a big difference between the amount of energy that Harald expends in a lesson with with Blue/green skier than when he is out cranking turns all morning on his own. The same is true for anyone that is teaching. There is quite a bit of talk/instruction time and the focus is on the students skiing and often it will be on moderate terrain.


Plus taking off gloves to shoot video! I always bundle up when I'm coaching.
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby polecat » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:42 pm

Max_501 wrote:
polecat wrote:You don't have to ski hard to ski well.


But you do have to work hard to master the movements and if you are using correct PMTS movements all day you will surely be tired before the end of a full day...

Tired, yes. But not necessarily too tired to continue if you're pacing your effort.


Max_501 wrote:
polecat wrote:I've definitely done some of my better skiing later in the day after I've stopped chasing my speed demon friends around the mountain and calmed down to concentrate on skiing cleanly rather than just fast.


...I agree that if you spend the morning skiing like crap you can do better in the afternoon by not skiing like crap. But that isn't what we are talking about here...

I ski like crap all the time. That's why I'm studying PMTS, to learn how not to.

But I've definitely skied some of my less crappy runs in the afternoon.


Max_501 wrote:
polecat wrote:And that's not judged by "feel" of my body or technique or whatever but by edge grip on the snow and my ability to place myself where I want, when I want, at the speed I want on the slope.


...Everything you just described is more or less based on feel.

If I'm on the same slope on the same snow and I'm skittering sideways, unable to hold and edge at all at one time but then I can actually carve a turn the next time that's not a feeling. That's a hard data point.

If I'm on the same slope on the same snow and I can barely make one turn at one time and I can make four turns the next. that's also objective data.


jbotti wrote:...Most fast skiing is low quality usually involving wider than GS turns and with a lot of straight-lining. So yes if you stop this and start arcing turns your skiing will improve. But "fast" skiing is not hard skiing. It's actually much easier on the body than arcing tight turns with big G forces.

And slamming sideways into bumps at high speed, having to absorb them because you can't turn when you want to is harder on your body than arcing tight turns on a shallower slope at lower speed when you aren't trying to keep up.


If the point of this discussion was to state that you can't ski well at very high intensity for more than a couple hours I completely agree with that.

That's an analog thing. You can't well ski at insanely high intensity (e.g. world cup level) for more than a few runs. (I can't do that at all.)

I'm just saying you can ski well longer at a moderate intensity, or a mix of intensities. Marathoners, sprinters middle distance specialists all have to run with good technique to be successful.

PMTS is about skiing well whatever intensity you choose.
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby Max_501 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:53 pm

polecat wrote:If I'm on the same slope on the same snow and I'm skittering sideways, unable to hold and edge at all at one time but then I can actually carve a turn the next time that's not a feeling. That's a hard data point.


Maybe, maybe not; and that is why video is needed for confirmation. Here's one example, on firmer surfaces it's not uncommon to be in a situation where the ski won't hold and chatters as you are trying to tighten the arc but if you back off on the movements you end up with a nice smoothly arcing ski. Feels great and the tracks look like you are ripping. The only problem is you are making GS arcs on SL skis! So much for that hard data point. :D
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby BigE » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:48 am

The turns are still not skidded.
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby Matt » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:59 am

BigE wrote:The turns are still not skidded.

If the turn radius is larger than sidecut times cos(edge angle) you are not in an edge locked carve either.
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby Max_501 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:41 am

BigE wrote:The turns are still not skidded.


The point is that going from skidded to edge locked does not necessarily mean the movements have improved, in fact they could have gotten worse as the prior example showed!
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby BigE » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:34 pm

I see.

The movements remain poor because when the inside ski chatters in a tight turn and stops chattering when the edge angle goes down, that does not mean the foot-to-foot weight distribution/balance issue has been corrected. It is still too heavy on the inside ski, the ski is just not chattering.

Thanks.
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Re: The Fallacy of the Full Ski Day

Postby Max_501 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:40 pm

BigE wrote:The movements remain poor because when the inside ski chatters in a tight turn and stops chattering when the edge angle goes down, that does not mean the foot-to-foot weight distribution/balance issue has been corrected. It is still too heavy on the inside ski, the ski is just not chattering.


Inside ski, outside ski, both skis. It doesn't really matter which was chattering/skidding when attempting to carve the tight arc. The important point is that stopping the chatter or skid doesn't necessarily indicate an improved movement pattern.
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