"Getting your body down the slope"

[JohnMoore]

In common with many (most?) skiers, I still have a bit of a tendency to cling on to the 'safety' of the hill when skiing steep slopes, particularly under icier conditions - to the inevitable detriment of my skiing. I know that if I could only 'get my body down the slope' a bit more, the turns would be more effective, and I beat myself up for not having the nerve to do so.

Now, my understanding of PMTS (particularly after reading this: http://www.pmts.org/index.php?option=co ... &Itemid=16) leads me to believe that this whole idea of having enough nerve to get my body more down the slope actually has no part in PMTS, and that following the primary movements, especially in terms of pulling my feet back under my hips and counter-balancing, inevitably does this for me without requiring any special acts of boldness on my part.

Is this correct, or do people still find they have to 'dare' to do something which instinct is telling them not to do?

[BigE]

I'm going to try a response here.... please correct me if I am wrong.

This is in the article:

"Great steep-slope skiers have the confidence to let go. Specifically they let go to release the skis. Releasing the skis means tilting them off their edges to the flat bases. This is where most skiers hesitate. Letting go involves letting the body move downhill with the skis. Learn to move your body downhill by pulling your feet back under your body as you release."

Letting go is uncomfortable on the steeps, especially if you don't let go on flatter terrain. It's simple to stay on top of your skis all the time on a green run, but you still need to change sides from turn to turn. This "changing sides" is to be practiced on flatter terrain before ramping it up to steeper stuff. And yes, it can be uncomfortable at first.

One failure more is to think you need a lot of pressure on the new edges in the high-C. While you can do that on the flats, it is not going to happen on the steeps. If you look at (I think) book 2 re: two footed releases, there is a chart that identifies the pressure distribution. It is clear that the pressure dominance on the outside leg comes from the fall line onward. Working backwards, it is then necessary to be downhill of the feet with no/little pressure on the skis in the Hi-C portion of the turn. Foot pull back is necessary to ensure that when the pressure does get applied, your CM is above your stance foot -- not behind. My mental cue is to pull back hard enough so that the pressure comes onto the shovels of the tipped skis (with % outer ski dominance depending on my goals and terrain). This shovel pressure ensures that the skis will turn quickly and control the rate of descent. If the inside ski chatters, there is too much weight on the inside ski.....you need more CB.

[Max_501]

Without video we have no idea what is contributing to "hanging on to the hill". If technique is good it's the mental game that needs work. If technique isn't perfect then you need to start there by learning:

1) Expert movements on Green
2) Expert movements on Blue
3) Expert movements on Dark Blue
4) Expert movements on Black

Letting go in steeps requires confidence and confidence is the result of great technique.

[cheesehead]

Max's post says it all. The better the technique the better the confidence when the challenges increase. The steeper you go the more you are ahead of the vertical. This does require an adjustment in technique, might be a good way of saying it.

Some people are more prone to the effects of "heights" which includes a vertigo-like sensation as you lean forward. If that is an issue for someone that can definitely affect confidence as the steepness increases.

I think it might also be fair to say that the steeper the slope the quicker your responses you need to be, so, again I am out of my league here, but it is probably a good idea to be able to do quick turns, if not necessarily bulletproof short turns, before you move up to the next level in steepness.

This is all part of PMTS discussions I think.

[Max_501]

The steeper you go the more you are ahead of the vertical. This does require an adjustment in technique, might be a good way of saying it.

Skiing steeper terrain requires very good technique. That's all! No change in technique required. The problem is too many skiers skip the fundamentals and hit the steeper stuff before they are ready.

[MonsterMan]

The problem is too many skiers skip the fundamentals and hit the steeper stuff before they are ready.

I disagree to a certain extent with this. Mental attitude / Fear plays a big role. I believe you can have the moves but still need to break through the fear factor.

This is a subject i'd like explored more by the good skiers here.

I had success last year just forcing myself to do 10 turns on my demon run. Amazing results. I got to 10 and said to myself; 10 more...twice! and i was down. It was very satisfying. I teared up after beating that bastard.

The first step for me was realising that it was fear, and not lack of technique. I think it was some profound eyebrow raise and comment that Walter made at the bar late one night.

Anyway, a year has passed, and I'm boarding for Hintertux in 30 minutes. We'll soon see if the mental breakthrough has stayed with me.

Geoff

[Max_501]

I disagree to a certain extent with this. Mental attitude / Fear plays a big role.

Monsterman, with all due respect, skipping the fundamentals is easily the number one reason skiers fail in more challenging terrain. Fear is an even bigger problem for those that lack solid PMTS fundamentals. We see it happen all the time. If you don't own a great BPST then steeper terrain is going to be far more nerve wracking then it needs to be!

[MonsterMan]

Suit yourself Max501. However, if my advise is read in context by another skier on the verge of a breakthrough, then perhaps it may help them. I stand by my comments.

[Max_501]

I stand by my comments.

OK, let's take a look at this.

I believe you can have the moves but still need to break through the fear factor.

I'm certain there are some skiers that fall into that category but remember that mastering the movements is a prerequisite for skiing challenging terrain without fear and the OP has not yet mastered the movements.

The point is that advising skiers to push themselves before the fundamentals are in place is counter productive.

[JohnMoore]

I believe you can have the moves but still need to break through the fear factor.

This is a subject i'd like explored more by the good skiers here.

Me too, and it's why I raised the subject, because I think it's an interesting question. Do the PMTS moves, when mastered, obviate the need to make that psychological leap to overcome the fear that creeps in on steeps? It is, of course, a gradual process - the definition of what is steep changes as ones skills and control develop.

[go_large_or_go_home]

the definition of what is steep changes as ones skills and control develop.

I think you have just answered your own question....

[go_large_or_go_home]

Harald Harb Wrote - Mar 16 2007: There seems to be a dilemma with PMTS. Skiers advance so quickly they out pace their skiing experience, but develop great technique. Why is this a dilemma? Often early learners of PMTS can ski the dickens out of groomed runs, yet since many have limited days a season, they rarely get a chance to become versatile at bumps and off piste.

This is not a PMTS limitation, it is a time constraint. PMTS skiers can look like experts after just three years of skiing, yet they have little real experience skiing. Their technical movement ability, far exceeds their skiing experience. Not a bad problem to have.

Diana and I discussed this the other day. We came to the conclusion that we need to take the Green and Blue level groups, to off piste skiing possibly earlier in their development. Now this is where the dilemma begins. Especially when you are on a roll with someone?s skiing in a camp. You see they are on the verge of breakthroughs in technique and movement, so you don?t want to disrupt the flow. If you take them to off-piste skiing even mild off-piste skiing, sure it will be good for them , but they can also revert back to old movements and possibly lose what they gained.

Ultimately skiers need both, for further development, off-piste experience and solid technique. Time is always the critical factor, but I think it would be good to introduce some irregular snow skiing to our developing PMTS experts.

We also have a high regard for everyone?s safety and many skiers are fearful of anything but groomed slopes. We want to keep skiers relaxed, as a relaxed skier learns faster. You can see the dilemma. Learning to ski off piste is time consuming and obviously more strenuous then skiing only on groomed runs. As a trial, for a solution, we will most likely further divide those skiers at our camps who are itching to ski off piste, even at the Blue level, into another group split. Those skiers who?s motivation is only to ski groomed runs will stay with the technical development group.

[HeluvaSkier]

Suit yourself Max501. However, if my advise is read in context by another skier on the verge of a breakthrough, then perhaps it may help them. I stand by my comments.

MM,
The point is not the fear or lack of fear, but that the technique does not change at all. When the terrain gets steeper, deeper, or bumpier, a skier needs MORE of every movement that they are using on flat terrain. There is no technique change. If fear is causing that skier to freeze up, then they need to go back to easy terrain, and start drilling the same movements in order to increase their useable range of motion and confidence for each movement. When they have mastered bigger angles, more flexing, more CA, more CB, and more pullback on flat terrain, which will result in tighter, higher edge angle turns, they will be able to take those same movements to steeper terrain with confidence because it is second nature.

When I was learning PMTS I could not carve top to bottom on a groomed black pitch with any amount of speed control. What did I do? I found a spot in the middle of the pitch that I could ski from with speed control and worked movements. I would build the movements on green terrain, go to my spot on the pitch and ski down using the biggest range of motion I coudl tap into at the time. As I improved, my spot on the pitch got higher and higher until I was starting at the top. This took several seasons of very focused practice (2006 to 2009).

The point is, if I skier has not mastered expert level movements on green terrain, those movements that they do own will deteriorate as the terrain becomes more difficult. Solution? Make it all second nature and fear will go out the window.

[cheesehead]

I think "technique" was a bad choice of words.

Let me ask a question instead:
In some videos and books they describe the "proper" ski position as perpendicular to the slope of the hill. In other words if you took pictures of a good skier on various degrees of slopes and then rotated the picture so that the snow was horizontal, then the picture -- the fore/aft of the skier over the skis -- should look virtually identical. In other words, in the transition, if you draw a line perpendicular to the snow the hips should be over the feet (or slightly ahead of them), no matter how steep the slope is.

It seems like this is where "good" non-PMTS skiers and PMTS agree. Am I right about this?

[HeluvaSkier]

Cheesehead,

I think it really depends where in the turn you're viewing the skier. A TTS skier (standing upright in transition) might look very forward between turns, however at the apex, you might see a different story. For a PMTS skier you may see just the opposite. Because we teach/learn movements instead of positions, the comparison is not apples to apples.

What I think is probably a more useful exercize, is to take a skier like Max_501. From green terrain to black terrain, if you took frames from any point in a turn, you're going to see the same movements. This means, if you want to get better at skiing black terrain... first get better at skiing green terrain.