Just for fun. Short turn series

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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby jclayton » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:53 am

Art , got some Dodge boots in January , tried the stock liners and changed them the next day for Intuition . For a thermoform liner ( not injected ) they work great . I don't think an injected liner would be that much better , for me at least .
The lightness felt a bit wierd the first day , after that great .
Jeremy
skinut ,among other things
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby skijim13 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:47 am

Jay, excellent turns, my short turns have a long way using PMTS this year but they are not near as good as yours. Been spending a good amount of time on the angry mother to improve my counter for short turn, too bad the season is near over for us in the northeast. Back to the tipping board and rollerblades this Spring.
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby skifreak » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:26 am

Stupid question: Are these turns really carved?
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby Max_501 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:31 am

skifreak wrote:Stupid question: Are these turns really carved?


These are an excellent example of a brushed BPST (Bullet Proof Short Turn).
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby skijim13 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:02 am

I posted a link to those great turns on my facebook page a fellow ski instructor and race coach made the following comment about those excellent BPSR turns. Comment; "Those are short turn skided short radius ski instructor turns". I have never seen a ski instructor even come close to make such high level turns not even a demo team member from our mountain. Such a lack of understanding in the ski community at my mountain.
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby arothafel » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:13 pm

...tried the stock liners and changed them the next day for Intuition


Thanks Jeremy... Perhaps that's the next step. :D
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby geoffda » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:28 pm

skijim13 wrote:I posted a link to those great turns on my facebook page a fellow ski instructor and race coach made the following comment about those excellent BPSR turns. Comment; "Those are short turn skided short radius ski instructor turns". I have never seen a ski instructor even come close to make such high level turns not even a demo team member from our mountain. Such a lack of understanding in the ski community at my mountain.


Yeah, very few people out there even understand what they are seeing with turns like that. Despite the brush, there is considerable energy which is often visible at release when the skis pop off the snow. There is a considerable acceleration of tipping through the bottom of the arc which increases edge engagement, tightens the radius, and hooks the turn finish. This is probably why your ski instructor friend thinks the turns are skidded; these turns simply don't exist in the PSIA repertoire so pushing the tails to finish the turn is the only thing that they understand which could possibly explain what they are seeing. Too bad they can't conceive of another explanation that would actually fit with the video evidence. What Jay is doing is demonstrating the essence of what PMTS skiing is all about. If you want to know whether somebody really understands PMTS at a high level, ask them to make those turns. If they can't do it, they don't yet get it.

One thing worth mentioning when talking about turns that include some level of brushing is that the tracks of a brushed carve are very different from both skidded and steered turns. This is because brushed carved turns are truly carved. The tails follow the tips and when the ski displaces laterally the displacement is uniform, unlike a skid where just the tails displace. I can't remember if you can see Jay's tracks in his video, but true brushed carved turns are easy to pick out because they always feature a half-moon shape, but with two distinct tracks. While half-moon shaped tracks are fairly common, it is rare to see the inner track because most people are twisting their feet to make these turns and the foot steering causes enough displacement that the tail of the inner ski erases its own track. Turns that are outright skidded look even more different because the tail of the ski breaks loose and those tracks are indistinct and often asymmetrical.
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby Max_501 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:03 pm

geoffda wrote:I can't remember if you can see Jay's tracks in his video, but true brushed carved turns are easy to pick out because they always feature a half-moon shape, but with two distinct tracks. While half-moon shaped tracks are fairly common, it is rare to see the inner track because most people are twisting their feet to make these turns and the foot steering causes enough displacement that the tail of the inner ski erases its own track.


Clarification. A good PMTS brushed carve will probably only show one track even though there is no twisting or steering of the feet. An expert level PMTS brushed carve may show two distinct tracks.
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby skifreak » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:17 am

Clarification. A good PMTS brushed carve will probably only show one track even though there is no twisting or steering of the feet. An expert level PMTS brushed carve may show two distinct tracks.


But it is no race carve!
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby BigE » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:41 am

Sometimes, the tracks I leave are razor thin on the outside ski, but show a brushed half moon on the inside ski, exactly like those Jay shows, but thinner.

Is this an acceptable outcome? I think so, as it shows that there is true outside ski weight dominance.
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby Max_501 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:00 am

skifreak wrote:But it is no race carve!


Ah...but the movements are the same!
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby Max_501 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:02 am

BigE wrote:Sometimes, the tracks I leave are razor thin on the outside ski, but show a brushed half moon on the inside ski, exactly like those Jay shows, but thinner.

Is this an acceptable outcome? I think so, as it shows that there is true outside ski weight dominance.


Depends on what caused the inside ski track. If its from early redirecting the inside ski rather than early tipping it then it would be the sign of a deficiency. You need to confirm with video.
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby BigE » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:56 am

Thank you! I will try to get some video. Am currently without camera, and cell phone videos are junk. I am fairly confident that it is not redirection I see, as such a track makes a slightly different looking brush.
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby Max_501 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:06 am

BigE wrote:I am fairly confident that it is not redirection I see, as such a track makes a slightly different looking brush.


Could also be lazy inside foot tipping. Regardless, without a coach to watch you, video is the only way to confirm what is causing it.
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Re: Just for fun. Short turn series

Postby BigE » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:44 am

Lazy is a strong contender.

I got some video last season by borrowing a recorder... perhaps I can get to that before our season finishes in two weeks.

Thanks for giving me some options to consider!
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