Kitzbuehel Slalom

[Biowolf]

Kitzbuehel WC Slalom Results:

1 st Manfred Pranger
2 nd Mario Matt

Any thoughts ?

[Tommi]

The wider the better?

[Guest]

Aren?t they the only two guys sticking to wide track and having problems to finish among the best 15?

[Guest]

Kalle will show how normal stance works, in Bormio..Pranger will shear his trousers.

[Tommi]

It was me who wrote the last stupid note.

[Biowolf]

Perkele, Satanas, Tommi. Lets hope they dont find any Kouskonkorva in Kalle's blood sample.

[Guest]

Schladming WC slalom:
1st Manfred Pranger

This Pranger can?t be the wide-stance loser with problems to get among the first 10?

OTOH,
"He has scored in all seven slaloms this season with one finish outside the top 10." (Ski Racing, Jan 26)

It?s a complicated world...

[Harald]

The wide stance demonstrated by Pranger and Matt today is not the same as it was two years ago. Although they stand wider than the faster skiers, they have narrowed considerably from what they previously used. They are also concentrating more pressure to the outside ski and releasing more cleanly with unweighting of the old outside ski then they did just a few seasons ago.

The advantage of the wide stance for this level of skiing is stability, safety and rounder turns.
The disadvantage is rounder turns, safety, meaning less rebound, dynamic angles and energy.

Pranger and Mario benefit from the bi-product of a wide stance, a low butt and very flexed legs. Flexed legs when ski angles are created and increased, develop pressure more gradually and progressively. Gradual pressure lengthens the turn arc and reduces perturbation.

With gradual build up, the ski isn?t shot out of the turn with nearly the force or speed, therefore it is easier to keep up with the skis for the next turn. Bode has the problem that he doesn?t keep up with is skis; he always has had that problem.

Right now, it is clear that the fast guys stand narrow and the safe guys ski with a wider, lower stance. Ligety with a very narrow stance, won the second run (tied) and he will come on, but he also had a clean course.


There is a very logical reason why the fast guys didn?t finish. They take risks and that is tough to do on that hill, (similar to Wengen) with difficult snow.

If Bode or Pallander back off slightly they win, but that is not their style. They can not change from one week to the other. They don?t have the maturity of say a Tomba or Stenmark. When Bode learns how to ski fast with more discipline, he could win every race, except when Kalle is hot in slalom.

The downhill and Super G events have taken some aggressiveness out of Bennie?s slalom, he looked tired, although he tied for second run, fast time. Rocca would have been the man on that hill. He has a narrow stance, yet gets his hips very low to the side, without the Bode lean and hand drag, which is both fast and efficient.

I think it is good that the slower guys have a chance to win every once and a while. It happens at all levels of racing whether it be Nor Am or National FIS. Some days the fast guys go down and the consistent slower skiers have their day. Don?t bank on it happening more often! There are too many fast guys and one of them is sure to finish next time. On a flatter, easier hill Pranger has no chance.

Besides Pranger's skiing is not pretty, it looks like he's working, not elegant, muscleing his runs. Kalle has grace, power, style and speed like Stenmark. Prettiest skier on the WC is Fritz Stroble. I have taken video of his skiing and watched it endlessly in slow motion, every line in his body is perfect.

[jclayton]

Thanks Harald ,
whether , as some put it , we drink the Koolaid or not that is an informed , objective post of someone who knows his field inside out .

[Biowolf]

Harald:
Thanks for entering this discussion. That was what I was hoping for when I started this thread. I want to say that I value your opinions very much and I consider myself lucky to have the oportunity to discuss racing technique with you. Yet I disagreed with your original statement back in December re: Pranger and Matt and I disagree with some of the things in your post here.
If you talk about wide stance skiers you have to include Benjamin Raich. He is the archetypal wide stance skier and he leads in the slalom standings. He is fast.
To break down slalom skiers into fast narrow and wide slow doesn't do justice to anybody. Pranger is always in the top ten and as you know he just won again in Schladming on Tuesday. He was leading afte the first run last year in four races. No question he is fast.
Mario in my opinion is technically the weakest skier in the first seed and the only one with an alignment problem. His left leg is way off.
Patrick Bigg from Canada who recently had three top ten finishes talked in Ski Racing about what he is trying to do. He said he is trying to let his skis run out past the gate and then pressure his new outside ski early. The goal is to ski slalom like GS. Seems to me that is what Pranger is doing more than anybody. If that is the trend then we might see more of this kind of skiing.
Of course body type is also an issue. Pranger has huge legs and a huge rear. For him to ski in a narrow stance might not be possible.
And then there is Ivica Kostelic who skis with one of the narrowest stances on the tour and is one of the hottest slalom skiers. Truly a wild mix.
If you are interested in seeing some of the most magical slalom skiing ever I invite you to go to "Felix-Neureuther.de" (de. as in Deutschland)
Again, I appreciate to have a chance to discuss these ideas which are close to my heart with you.

[Tommi]

Really interesting post Harald, thank you. This discussion leads my thinking to another side of narrow vs wide stance:

When racers transfer (say, in GS and speed events, not in SL), there seems to be a danger of 'doing the transfer too fast'. What I mean here is that they make so aggressive turns, that it sometimes seems that during the transfer the rotational inertial force around their Center of Mass and 'speed vector' is hard to handle (upper body trying to stay calm, skis/feet zooming out). When this 'error' occurs one can typically see the outer hand launching up very hard to stop the body movement. It could also lead to weight getting in and disaster..

How is the stance width related to this? I could imagine that with wider stance the pressure can be transferred with less net body movement, at least in this respect.

Am I completely lost with this thought..or is this basic stuff in (speed) racing?

Tommi (T2)

[Harald]

No need to make this a wrong/ right, agree/ disagree conference, its just what it is.

If you talk about wide stance skiers you have to include Benjamin Raich. He is the archetypal wide stance skier and he leads in the slalom standings. He is fast.

Bennie has made many changes to his skiing over the past five years. He began with a narrow stance when he first arrived. Then he went to a very wide stance because he was misaligned for two seasons. I personally communicated this to the Austrian coaching staff. They have him more figured out now than for the past two years. His stance was wide when his alignment was very bowlegged. He stands much narrower now. I do not classify him in the group with Pranger and Matt. He skis much more one footed and lifts his inside or old stance ski often.

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2000- ... -2002.html

To break down slalom skiers into fast narrow and wide slow doesn't do justice to anybody.

It does justice to those who want to develop their skiing to either ski fast and aggressive or for those who want to ski safe and slower. Let?s not exaggerate, Pranger has won one race, in this race most of the guys who always beat him DNF?d. Process of elimination, the faster skier eliminated themselves. If Pranger could ski with a narrower stance he would be more dynamic and he would be faster, but less consistent. If I were his coach I would have him training by narrowing up his stance. You would see a different skier. Besides it?s ugly, wide feet, with low butt, it?s just not elegant or dynamic.

Much of this has to do with body type, as you said, but also his mental make up. Skiers who are risk takers ski with quicker movements and reflexes. Pranger is a slow mover who likes security. In most of his shaped ski slalom years Aamodt was like Pranger, slow and consistent. Pranger is a great athlete but he is big and slower than the quick reflex guys. The risk takers will usually win out, but it is a process of elimination and on some days, like at Kitz they all lost out.

The wider stance requires more grinding time around the arc. The outside ski is farther from the turning pole. The Cg is lower yes, but there is so much mass out of the direct line with the slicing edge, direct pressure is reduced. The whole inside leg, boot and ski are not in line with the forces when the stance is as wide as Pranger?s. The farther away these portions of mass are from the force line the more perturbation affects the slicing ski. This was demonstrated with kinematics at the previous International Congress of Skiing and Science.

The more direct short arc with more pressure is defiantly faster. The shorter arc, produces a cleaner, shorter slice. When the feet are closer together the body mass, and it parts are more in line with the cutting edge and the force line to the edge is longer and more acute. This was clearly demonstrated at the last International Congress with Kinematics presented by the Slovenians. The Austrian coaches admit the wide stances of Mario and Pranger are trying to rid themselves of, are to some extent still left-over from the earlier developments of the shaped ski era.

Narrow stance skiing/racing requires more aggression. The line is more aggressive and the body is farther inside the turn. The more direct skiing line also results in violent accelerated releases. The body and Cg must keep up with these rapid changes in balance. You won?t see the rounder line guys doing nearly as much inclination and fore/aft recovery. The price you pay for pushing the envelope.

The rewards are sometimes great when you are really on. Bode has been on, but not recently in Slalom. Pallender is having an inconsistent season. He skis much like Sykora used to ski. With his style he will beat the Prangers every time, given they both have reasonably clean runs.

[Harald]

How is the stance width related to this? I could imagine that with wider stance the pressure can be transferred with less net body movement, at least in this respect.

Tommi as you said, so very well, when speed increases, so do forces. The top skiers are capable of holding two to multiple times their body weight when they are skeletally aligned at the point in the arc where the greatest force stacks up or is achieved. This is why the aggressive release move can cause such distress. All that energy released at once launches the body. When the release move is more controlled so are the forces, but when forces are absorbed with the body, so is speed. Ultimately it is a game of managing the CG. The hand in the air is a rotational inertial force slow down move.

As always, the players are trying to reduce time spent in the arc, to do this they risk everything, by creating body angles and positions to effectively use the skis. The problems come when forces are released at the end of the turn and readjusting for the new turn. The greatest amount of body change happens in the shortest amount of time lapse, from release to engagement, during edge changes. The skidding you see these days in GS, has to do with the course setting relative to ski carving radius. Skis no longer match the turns the coaches are setting, especially in GS.

Racers are therefore often forced to release their edges and change edges using the forces, but not reapplying the angles and pressure that would have the skis carve. They maintain shallow angles of their skis and control the skis with foot and ankle tipping and linear momentum (this is where you see the skidding) take them to the place where they can reapply the carving characteristics of the skis. Not all turns require this delayed engagement, but some race hills more than others.


Because this type of skiing requires that most of the pressure be dealt with in a very short phase of the turn, perfect body angulation and inclination must be achieved at that point. Bode is best in the world when it comes to dealing with forces and aligning his body to them. He has an almost old style, completely classic, counter and upper body position when in the critical phase of the turn.

I have footage, which I personally taped, this season, of the best GS and Super G skiers in the world. I can tell you Bode has the strongest position and he holds it longer without leaning away from the forces or rotating away from the forces. Leaning and rotating as we all know reduces pressure and force build up and is a way to bleed off forces the skier can?t hold. It is amazing to see even the best skiers lean into the hill or away from the skis, even so slightly. They also rotate slightly to manage pressure or force building.

When forces and speed become so great as in GS and Super G, the width of the feet and skis in transition is not an issue, as there is no need to be aligning the body to the forces in transition. The skier has time to readjust the body to be ready for the forces when they develop. There is enough force to move the body and hold it almost suspended between the edge change.

Darren Ralves is more classic then most in this respect. He does more counter balancing and countering then most of the top skiers. Even Hermann allows a big lean and some rotation at the top of his turn preparation. Fritz Stroble is the best, I think I have mentioned that before.

In GS the great skiers are waiting to align their bodies again at the crucial max load points in the turn. In slalom there is no time to wait. The skiers must react, rebalance and realign their bodies within fractions of seconds.

Von Gruenegen Multi World Champion in GS, was the master at the weighted release. He was able to time and judge exactly how aggressive his release could be while still keeping balance and reducing scrubbing. The Von Gruenegen move is therefore named for his releasing ability.

Releasing the forces is preceded by an almost unreal increase in body angles to the uphill side (into the turn). Releasing becomes a matter of unloading the out-stretched leg at the end of the turn, on the downhill side. For this to occcur the leg has to bend, the muscles have to relax even slightly, the knee has to go through a controlled flex. A complete collapse would not work well to control the energy. The release has to be timed with the radius and distance to the next turn in mind.

The skier?s body immediately reacts when any pressure change or pressure reduction occurs. Even a slight unexpected pressure release can have huge disastrous results for a racer. The reaction is so violent that it can throw the skier high into the air in a thousandth of a second. If you ever get a chance to see the turn in which Erich Schlopy injured his knee at Park City last year, you will be amazed. He is launched eight feet straight up and he does a complete summersault. He had just done almost the same thing in Soelden a few weeks before, but survived that one.

Many of the crashes happen when the outside or stance leg is completely extended and the knee no longer has any extension available. This is a very vulnerable position. If the ski slips at this moment, the body is rocketed into space.

If you ski at slower speed, say like an intermediate skier, you do not generate the forces that can take the body to the next turn. A wide stance for these skiers keeps them two footed and pushing their center of gravity from turn to turn with leg extensions. This is skiing by pushing your CG around, which leads to bad, almost irretrievable poor movements in skiers.

[milesb]

Thanks for that, Harald.

[Biowolf]

Thanks. Harald
Time will tell. In the meantime something to think about
Schladming WC Slalom, Jan. 25, 2005 (two days after Kitzbuehel)

1 Manfrd Pranger
2 Benjamin Raich
3 Andre Myhrer (SWE) (The real dark horse)