Updated version of my Expert Skiing Part 2 Tipping.

[go_large_or_go_home]

HH is doing the Hoping edge change drill - he even said so in his commentary.

P62 from Essentials -

Extend the stance leg quickly & strongly, then pull your skis and boots off the snow. If you are feeling particularly energetic, try to lift both knees towards your chest. Once you are off the ground, change edges by tipping (lifting up on the previously engaged edges), and get ready to balance on the new edges when you land

[BigE]

Monsterman: It is clear as day that the legs extend prior to flexing. I am surprised you don't see that.

go_large_or_go_home: thank you for clarifying that I was not hallucinating.

[h.harb]

Monster is right the extension is because I'm creating angles quickly therefore to stay on the snow I have to extend to maintain contact. The rebound comes from the turn and from the skis not my pushing to lengthen the legs. Wrong interpretation. The energy comes from ski's angles, the radius shortening, not extension.

[BigE]

I am talking about the lengthening of the legs at turn completion, just before you go airborne, not at the start of the turn. It is definitely a hopping I am viewing .

My sound is not working. Maybe that's why I am confused?

[Max_501]

My sound is not working. Maybe that's why I am confused?

Why are you MAing Harald's skiing without listening to the voice instruction in the video? The video voice over says you hop (that's why folks here are confused about your post, because it sounds like you are talking about something else as the hop is one of the instructions for the drill).

BTW, this particular drill progression is covered in the PMTS DVDs. You use a little hop when starting out. As your skills increase you can get airborne without the hop.

[BigE]

Sorry for the confusion: No sound at work.

[go_large_or_go_home]

Okay, I see the subtle difference. The energy for the "hop" off the snow is not coming from extension of the the legs but from the releasing of the energy from the ski. Timing this energy release with an aggressive hamstring pullup gets you airborne..the lengthening of the legs just prior to this is not not pushing/ extending but as a consequence of increasing tipping angles therefore your COM is moving more inside and further away from your feet..

[Max_501]

I,m looking at the "Bump skiing with master" video. As the skier comes past the camera, at the point where the slope is starting to steepen, I feel the skier is starting to get into a backseat position, probably because there is not enough pull back of the skis in transition. This will start to lead to loss of control. I,m interested in others comments.

Is more pullback needed for these bumps at the speed shown? No.

Will the skier use a more aggressive pullback in steeper terrain or at faster speeds? Yes.

I'd say that this skier has just learned the advanced movement of pushing the feet forward before hitting the next bump and is still working on timing that movement with flexion and pullback. It takes practice time to get everything working perfectly.

[blackthorn]

Thanks Max- useful comments as always. I raised this as I find this happening for me quite a lot. There will be many reasons but what to do when one finds oneself in this situation. It has been mentioned in other posts that at times it may be best to stop and start again, but in reality one doesn't usually want to do this if free skiing, especially with others, rather than practising. In TTS days I used to think " I need to get my weight forward" now I think " do more pull back". Ie SMIM in this situation.

[Max_501]

They have a series of rollers (like waves) and also a spine or ridge, where you can learn all the basics of bump absorption and how to use you legs and ankles for fore/aft balance. This ski area is so far ahead of all others and they aren't stopping they are speeding up their programs. They actually teach and engage you in bump movements, they don't talk about it, they do it.

Very cool. Sounds like an absorption tank. I've only found one once, up at Hood. Great training for bumps.

[BigE]

Thank you for setting me straight...

Big E, sorry but your comprehension has huge holes in it. Go back read book 1 and then book 2 and then the Essentials. Either you have not read my materials or you have a big CSIA bias still stuck somewhere. PSIA AND CSIA, both think I extend and use leg steering in my skiing.

Yes, there are holes in my understanding! I will re-read them all. I have read them all, incl. the instructors manual, and viewed all the dvds The point of confusion comes from a statement on this site that the leg is longest at the fall line. This is not so in the hopping edge change drill.

I never extend Vertically to raise my CG . How can you extend or even push, if your outside leg is already almost totally extended in the lower "C"? Extending to push off is not what I am doing in this video. In fact, I do everything to avoid it and if I feel any extension, I know I'm doing it incorrectly and poorly. How can you change edges in the air if you have pushed to extend? Pushing moves your Cg up hill, and I'm clearly traansitioning to a High C upside down engagement landing on the new edges. In this video I'm doing an exercise.

The leg extension "you see", (which is no extension it's lengthening) is in all my turns, and it's a long outside leg at an angle. My arc creates the energy for a rebound, I hop by "retracting", using that energy. Due to the outside leg length and the pressure created from the tightening of the arc; I can retract quickly creating a hop. Same as a WC slalom turn you often see both feet off the snow with no push or extension. My edge change happens while air born and with legs completely flexed and changing angles. This is an "Expert Plus " movement, and if you don't create this kind of arc I'm making; you won't know how much energy is in an arc. PSIA and CSIA skiers don't create this kind of arc, so they have no clue how this is created. So they can't do MA on this type of skiing, it's out of their league.

I shall not use the word extension in place of lengthening anymore. I can see that it is the wrong term.

I am familiar with the effect you've described -- in this sort of turn, one keeps the leg long after the fall-line which loads the ski. I have done this, but not repetitively and not on demand as shown in the video. My earlier concern that the leg was to shorten after fall-line kept me from continuing down this path. But, it is obviously ok to resist by keeping the leg lengthened past fall-line.

Thanks again for taking the time to clarify this for me. i really appreciate it.

[geoffda]

The point of confusion comes from a statement on this site that the leg is longest at the fall line. This is not so in the hopping edge change drill.

E- I think what is confusing you is that in the hopping edge change, you have to allow the hips to rise a bit when you release so that you have room to retract your feet. When you release (assuming you have energy) and don't flex quickly, the forces will cause the hips to rise. This results in the old free leg being pulled longer. Note my use of the word "pull." There is no pushing off, no effort to forcibly lengthen the leg. Probably, however long you allow yourself to get in transition will still be shorter than the maximum stance leg length that you will get when your CM moves fully inside the new turn, but ultimately it doesn't matter. Hopping edge changes are not a special case. The same movements are involved; only the timing is a bit different. Don't over think this. Go try some and I think what we are trying to say will make more sense. Just make sure you are hopping by pulling your knees up to your chest, not by pushing off from the soles of your feet. You shouldn't be gaining height.

[BigE]

The point of confusion comes from a statement on this site that the leg is longest at the fall line. This is not so in the hopping edge change drill.

E- I think what is confusing you is that in the hopping edge change, you have to allow the hips to rise a bit when you release so that you have room to retract your feet. When you release (assuming you have energy) and don't flex quickly, the forces will cause the hips to rise. This results in the old free leg being pulled longer.

I cannot agree with that statement. When you are releasing, you are flexing. The hips cannot rise. There are no forces present which will cause you to rise so that your legs lengthen and the CM stays is above the skis. Continuous tipping guarantees that the legs are being made shorter and shorter as the turn tightens and the pressure increases. That is simple physics.

Note my use of the word "pull." There is no pushing off, no effort to forcibly lengthen the leg. Probably, however long you allow yourself to get in transition will still be shorter than the maximum stance leg length that you will get when your CM moves fully inside the new turn, but ultimately it doesn't matter. Hopping edge changes are not a special case. The same movements are involved; only the timing is a bit different. Don't over think this. Go try some and I think what we are trying to say will make more sense. Just make sure you are hopping by pulling your knees up to your chest, not by pushing off from the soles of your feet. You shouldn't be gaining height.

*Allow* suggests that the action is a passive result of releasing forces. Such lengthening happens after transition when the CM as changed sides. It is not possible for the legs to lengthen passively while the CM has not yet crossed the skis.

Check the slow motion shots of Harald. The legs have gotten longer before any flexing/releasing happened.

[geoffda]

I cannot agree with that statement. When you are releasing, you are flexing. The hips cannot rise. There are no forces present which will cause you to rise so that your legs lengthen and the CM stays is above the skis. Continuous tipping guarantees that the legs are being made shorter and shorter as the turn tightens and the pressure increases. That is simple physics.

*Allow* suggests that the action is a passive result of releasing forces. Such lengthening happens after transition when the CM as changed sides. It is not possible for the legs to lengthen passively while the CM has not yet crossed the skis.

Check the slow motion shots of Harald. The legs have gotten longer before any flexing/releasing happened.

E- Let me be absolutely clear. What you think you are seeing is not what is happening. You are falling into the same flawed reasoning that makes so many PSIA/CSIA instructors think that elite skiers are actively extending to project themselves into the new turn. The problem with pictures is that you can't tell whether the extension you are seeing is active or passive.

What I can tell you from personal experience is that if you generate large release forces and you do not flex quickly enough the hips will rise. When your hips are low, your legs are a barrier that the hips must cross to move into the new turn. Flexing removes that barrier. If flexing does not happen quickly enough, then then hips will be pulled up and over instead of across. This is simple biomechanics. Moreover, if you trigger the release by simply relaxing the old stance leg and do not flex at all, the release forces will stand you up. You can get very long legs and it will appear as if you are actively extending your legs to push yourself into the new turn though that is not what is happening.

Doing hopping edge changes is very difficult if you start them from a fully flexed position because you have little room to pull you feet up since you are already fully flexed. Therefore, when doing this exercise, it is necessary to make use of the release forces to allow some lengthening of the legs early in the release (as I described above) to give yourself some room to pull your feet up. The end result is a release that is so subtle that it is difficult to see followed by not much flexion (which is overpowered by the release forces) until it is time to suck the feet up. It looks different because of the timing, but it isn't different.

[Max_501]

Clarification. The standard hopping edge change drill really does have a hop. Geoff is describing the expert version of the hopping edge change drill that can be done with higher energy turns. Obviously HH can do those easily.

BigE, just follow the instructions in the PMTS materials, rather than MAing HH, and you'll have an easier time mastering PMTS.

Please stop the other-forum-like debating here. It is not productive and only confuses other readers.