Increasing boot forward lean - problems?

[JohnMoore]

I've just come back from a great week in the Italian Alps, where I definitely skied better than I've ever done before. On the last day, though, I was playing about a bit and made an interesting discovery. When I increased the forward lean of my boots by putting a piste map down the back (between liner and shell), I really felt that it made me more centered on the skis, making tipping moves immediately more effective, without having any obvious downsides such as strain on quads or whatever. Throughout the week I had been working to maintain what I think of as a 'compact' stance, legs flexed with light pressure on the fronts of my boots, a position in which my best skiing was accomplished, but one which required constant effort to maintain (pulling feet back under hips, etc.). It just seemed that with the slightly increased forward lean, this position was what just happened without my having to do anything.

Now, my impression has been that PMTS has tended to favour boots with less of a forward lean, so it slightly worries me that I'm moving in the wrong direction and I'm wondering whether there might be some unforeseen consequences of such a move. The boots I ski in are Head Raptor Project RS from 3 years ago, basically the same as these - http://www.harbskisystems.com/index.php ... Itemid=255, and I use ZipFit Grand Prix liners. (The piste maps were of the Ski Amade area of Austria, if that helps ). I don't know whether these boots are unusually upright in their forward lean, or whether there is something unusual about my anatomy, or whether I'm making a mistake. I consider myself normally proportioned (and certainly when I walk down the street nobody stares at me in a strange way ), although I would say that I do have a slender build (5'11", 142lb).

There are so many variables to do with bootboard angle, binding angle, mount position, etc., that it all gets rather bewildering. I suppose I just need to know whether it's possible that a minor increase in forward angle, such as I achieved temporarily with piste maps and would do longer term with spoilers, might indeed be a legitimate thing for me to do, or whether I'm messing with the wrong thing. (I know that a proper assessment requires face time with a PMTS boot specialist, which is on the cards for some time in the next few weeks).

[Max_501]

Nothing wrong with trying a spoiler but you need video or a coach to evaluate the change.

[h.harb]

You didn't change the forward lean angle of the boot. What you did is fill in the space behind your leg, so you couldn't lean back as far. This is why they invented the "spoiler". I have one in my boots because I have no calf muscles to speak of, due to both achilles tendons being ruptured at some point in my life. Nothing wrong with the boot geometry.

[JohnMoore]

You didn't change the forward lean angle of the boot. What you did is fill in the space behind your leg, so you couldn't lean back as far. This is why they invented the "spoiler". I have one in my boots because I have no calf muscles to speak of, due to both achilles tendons being ruptured at some point in my life. Nothing wrong with the boot geometry.

Thanks, Harald, I'm sure that's 100% right. I was wondering whether I somehow deviated from the norm in terms of proportion of tibia to femur or something like that, but it makes a lot more sense that it's simply because my calves are less bulky than the average person's. I just measured the circumference of my lower leg at its bulkiest point, and it was 14.5". I don't know how normal that is, but I know I have thin bones, and although I do a lot of running and have muscular calves, I think the nature of the muscle one builds up from running is increased wiryness rather than bulk. It hadn't struck me that the consequence of this would be that I would be more upright in my stance than the average skier in the same boots, although when one considers that all of the take-up in adjustment to different anatomies of the boot is at the front, it's rather obvious.

I'm going to trawl back thought the archives and see what I can find that's been said about the issue in the past, if anything, to see if I can get a better understanding of how all the variables inter-relate.

[Max_501]

It hadn't struck me that the consequence of this would be that I would be more upright in my stance than the average skier in the same boots

As HH said, the boot geometry doesn't change so if you were keeping your shin against the tongue then there would be no difference to an observer with the spoiler inserted. The spoiler simply reduces the amount that you can lean back before hitting the back of the boot cuff.

[JohnMoore]

It hadn't struck me that the consequence of this would be that I would be more upright in my stance than the average skier in the same boots

As HH said, the boot geometry doesn't change so if you were keeping your shin against the tongue then there would be no difference to an observer with the spoiler inserted. The spoiler simply reduces the amount that you can lean back before hitting the back of the boot cuff.

I must be misunderstanding something here - isn't there an actual difference in stance? If we take two different skiers, one with ultra skinny lower legs and one with big chunky ones, the one with the skinny legs will have to buckle the top buckles right down to achieve the requisite tightness around the lower leg, which will pull the tongue into a more upright position (as it's pivoted at the ankle). The skier with big bulky calves will need to buckle down only to the most open position, say, with the result that the tongue remains more angled. And the angle of the tongue pretty well matches the angle of the shin, does it not? So the skier with bulky calves naturally has more forward lean in their stance, don't they?

I have to say this area is a nightmare for the layperson to understand - there are so many variables which influence each other - so any elucidation is most welcome!

[Max_501]

I must be misunderstanding something here - isn't there an actual difference in stance?

Prior to adding the maps did have have a snug fit between your leg and the cuff?

[HeluvaSkier]

JohnMoore,
If you are changing nothing else (not adjusting buckles, etc.) and only adding a spoiler, you are simply taking up the space behind your calf and keeping your shin against the front of the boot. This only changes how far aft you can move in the boot - not the forward lean. If you are using the spoiler to take up space that isn't there to begin with, and as a result have to loosen the top buckle on the cuff, you could be changing the angle of your shin. This is really the 'wrong way' to change the orientation of your shin and takes away most of the mobility in the ankle. Lastly and probably most important, boot setup is highly individual and changes should be overseen by a PMTS coach and boot fitter.

[sgarrozzo]

HI John,

I think that skiing in Italy with Austrian ski maps behind your calf muscles is not regular.
Next time let me know of your stay in the Italian Alps, so I can send to you some nice maps of the ski slopes of Tuscany.

[JohnMoore]

Lastly and probably most important, boot setup is highly individual and changes should be overseen by a PMTS coach and boot fitter.

I'm planning to get over to Portes du Ski in the Netherlands before my next ski trip and get this done properly. I do have one area of doubt, though, and I'm hoping someone with experience of PMTS boot-fitting can help me. I go to the bootfitter and he gets me sorted out with footbeds if necessary, all alignment stuff, etc., and now my boots and footbeds are wonderful, I'm perfectly aligned, left and right, fore and aft - but then I ski on skis with an above or below average binding delta angle, or with the binding mounted ahead of or behind the ski centre point. What happens then? I mean, does the PMTS bootfitting process work independent of the skis being used, or does it have to work as a system, boots, footbeds and skis?

[JohnMoore]

Next time let me know of your stay in the Italian Alps, so I can send to you some nice maps of the ski slopes of Tuscany.

Yes, I was hoping the ski patrol people wouldn't notice . Have you skied Gressoney/Alagna? Fantastic area, skied there for last 5 years.

[HeluvaSkier]

but then I ski on skis with an above or below average binding delta angle, or with the binding mounted ahead of or behind the ski centre point. What happens then?

This is why there are specific skis that Harald tests every year and recommends to his students. He does the testing, so that if you select one of the skis he recommends, it will serve your purposes as a ski to learn PMTS on.

What is the best thing you can do for your skiing?

1) Get a PMTS boot fitting
2) Choose a proper PMTS learning ski
3) Do the drills
4) Keep doing the drills
5) Post video
6) Do more drills

[Max_501]

I mean, does the PMTS bootfitting process work independent of the skis being used, or does it have to work as a system, boots, footbeds and skis?

The boots are done independent of the skis.

[JohnMoore]

I mean, does the PMTS bootfitting process work independent of the skis being used, or does it have to work as a system, boots, footbeds and skis?

The boots are done independent of the skis.

Meaning, I would hope, that I will still get the benefits of the alignment (in fore-aft terms) even if I hire some other skis? I only own one pair of skis and figure I can always hire some others in the resort if conditions require, so it would be good to know that the fore-aft alignment would still work for me on other skis (albeit, perhaps, with some slight compensation).

[sgarrozzo]

Next time let me know of your stay in the Italian Alps, so I can send to you some nice maps of the ski slopes of Tuscany.

Yes, I was hoping the ski patrol people wouldn't notice . Have you skied Gressoney/Alagna? Fantastic area, skied there for last 5 years.

I skied ...... Gressoney La Trinité-St. Jean 's last week of December many years ago. But there was no sign of snow. Only rocks!
So I do not know any ski slope there!!