This isn't second hand

[Real Skier]

I lifted this from Epic (check out the whole thread it's worth it) it tells the real story about the naysayers here who keep attacking Harald and PMTS.

The post is from a coach who skied with Harald. Everyone I know who skis with Harald finds that it is one of the most enlightening experiences in their skiing life.


The Rusty Guys and the others try to come in here and put Harald and his methods, ideas and programs down, without knowing Harald, his methods or programs. Has Rusty every skied with Harald, does he know him? I doubt it. But can Rusty spew out his venom based on hearsay, yes very well?

They have heard certain things and formed opinions. This is a despicable way to behave and it shows in their posts, the Rusty?s of the world are only out to cover up their own failures rather than informing themselves properly about what skiing can really be..

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=23138

Finally I got to meet Harald and get the "straight scoop" right "from the horse's mouth".
Harald is very personable, extremely knowledgable and an excellent skier. I found no contradiction with anything he said or taught. I also didn't hear anything that I hadn't heard before (except for some boot mod tips to my Dobermans) I even got to revisit some things I used to work on 20 years ago. I'm kind of surprised we hadn't crossed paths before as we have a number of common aquaintences.
This was not a PMTS clinic but what I would call a skier development clinic. During the preliminary discussion I asked about alignment relative to stance width. His answers were pretty much what I would have said if asked the same question. Discussion of rotary showed me that his definition is different than mine but we agree on the principles, just use different terms to describe them. A discussion of "up" with the group ended with the group missing the point, fortunatly I was able to talk one on one with him and get his meaning.(in this case he was talking about up movement or extension rather that getting farther from the center of the earth.) At this point he made a statment about how you present a task to an athlete that was almost verbatum to what another top coach had told me 20 years ago.
I suspect the controversy arises because he usually has very complex answers and explainations to things. Also his definitions don't always agree with our standard ones. I'm GUESSING that he may be figuring these things out in German and not always getting an English word that hits the nail on the head (I understand that there are German words that it takes a page of English to define) In my observation, most of the "followers" seem to be missing the point or are focusing on only one part of what is a complex system. I see nothing to argue about.
All in all it was a very good experience. We had an excellent dialogue.

[Guest]

Thanks for the link Real Skier. I apprecitated the link and your post. However, why knock Rusty--or anyone for that matter? I'd like our theories and practices to speak for themselves without ad hominem rhetoric. It may have been Ott who called for more civility of tone and less attitude.

I've appreciated several of the posters who have been pretty consistent about adopting a calm, reasoned tone even when provoked. Their maturity has impressed me as much as their skiing passion.

Michael

PS Hey, Big E, come back. With who else am I going to argue about exercises for skiing?

[mkgil]

That was me above, mkgil. The only thing that's likely to cause me to lose the calm, reasoned tone I'm suggesting is this %^&8 login problem.

Michael

[Eddy]

Look, you may enjoy Rusty, but he adds nothing to this form. He constantly berates skiers here, telling them they are being towed around by the nose, drinking Harald?s cool aid and his methods. Most of the skiers here have experienced two skiing methods; Rusty has only experienced one and teaches one. Where does he get off talking to us that way? Get lost, good riddance.

He is impressed with all the wrong stuff and he doesn?t listen to reasonable posts. Frankly he can stay on Epic.

If he ever came off his misguided high horse and smelled the coffee he would be ashamed at his behavior. We are not likely to see that. How many times does John have to say that some of the most highly regarded skiers in the world follow and teach Harald?s methods and they learned them from Harald? Rusty acts like he knows more and tries to put himself above all these skiers. A more open, listening, sympathetic, respectful Rusty would get a very different reception. How?s that for a challenge? Right over his head.

[Rusty Guy]

Eddy,

I think many of the folks here would side with me that I have been civil.

I have never criticized any PMTS devotees skiing. On the other hand I have repeatedly stated I think Harald and Diana are great skiers. Two years ago I first skied with SCSA and was mesmerized by his athleticism and ability based upon two years of skiing. I make a point to ski with him several times a year. I have seen John Mason ski and never said anything critical. I anxiously look forward to skiing with him this year and exchanging ideas. He is early on in his career and his enthusiasm and lust for learning is contagious.

I could care less whether an instructor teaches a direct to parallel method. My concern is from a polar position. I tire of the marketing based upon criticisms of PSIA or as folks here term it TTS. I know and work with several PMTS certs and neither their teaching or their skiing differs greatly from their peers in the ranks of PSIA.

I have no idea whether you or any other PMTSer have seen me ski, however, you claim to. I have said all along I'm a very average skier for a PSIA level III cert. While holding that level of certification I have repeatedly, repeatedly stated I am no expert.

To suggest Bob Barnes from Vail or Bob Barnes from Winter Park have any substantive shortcomings in their skiing is simply silly. You claim on another thread to have been a "former" examiner. Did diminishing skills contribute to your ouster? What is it with spurned demo team members and examiners that make you folks so crabby?

To make the statements you did about Ott are absurd. Anyone who has ever met the man knows he is the quintisential gentleman.

I will ask you several questions.

Has everyone in the "ranks" of PMTS been equally civil? How hard is it for anyone to find evidence condemming thousands of ski instructors?

In short....skip the manners lecture

[piggyslayer]

Guys,
We got to stay positive. If you read the thread you see some great posts. The posts done by Jay have to be an eye opener to any open minded reader.

Robert

[Eddy]

Sorry Piggy you are right and the posts by Ski syn are right on target. But again Rusty proves my point. Get some civility, Rusty has nothing to offer except underhanded put downs. We see right through you Rusty and again frankly we are sick of you..

[Ott Gangl]

Maybe to lend some weight to what I am about to say I will tell you where I am coming from, my background: this is my 61st season of skiing, I am close to 73 years old and taught for 35 years before retiring, 25 of them at a small area in Ohio. My teaching background is in the French, Austrian and American techniques. I hold full certifiactions here from the USSA (United States Skiing Association), PSIA full certified, now called level-3, and the ISIA (International Ski Instructors Association) .

I taught classes at all levels, but I retired in 1985 and have not taught a class in twenty years, yet I keep up with the advancements in skiing and take clinics, not just here in the US but in my native Germany and Austria where we ski a lot. I ask a lot of questions here, not to criticize anybody or anything, but in the quest to keep up with advancements in skiing. Thus I asked why PMTS didn't get a serious foothold in many areas where it was introduced and tried.

How you could interpret a question like this as a criticism of HH I don't know, and since I don't teach no envy is involved.

Well here is my take for what it's worth: PMTS is a well thought out and complete system that can make it easier to learn how to ski. In it's mapped out rigidity of progression and eschewing of certain beginners moves it cannot easily be adapted to crowded small areas where 3000 students are taught in a five acer area all at the same time.

My observation is that the trend in the ski teaching world is going toward what PMTS teaches and mostly quite independent of PMTS. In areas where there is room and the will, direct to parallel is taught as an option, maybe soon to be the norm. The other PMTS primary moves are already incorported in many lessons, they are just not called PMTS.

Who the better skier is, HH or BB is totally immaterial, there are always better skier and lesser skiers than anyone. In my own skiing I have incorporated a lot of the PMTS turns, theyare easier for me at times, and not at other times. When one has a lot of skiing expirience the moves come automatically, thus I have encouraged skiiers to learn them all just in case they are needed.

And the name PMTS stands for Primary Moves TEACHING System, not skiing system, so my concern is not how well a student of the system skis, I hope all skiing students all over the world learn to ski better, but how well the system lends itself to be taught. I know the wedge is a sore point here but it is a maneuver that any skier should know because there are many times during a skiing day it is used. There is no need to unlearn it, all skiing systems long ago have recognized that a beginner can get stuck in the wedge if it is ingrained and thus have moved through and out of the wedge as soon as the skier can reasonably balance without it.

Enough for now and if possible lets leave HH and PSIA out of our discussions and just debate the pro and cons of PMTS, because even Rusty came here to learn and nothing can be learned with flaming.

....Ott

[piggyslayer]

Ott's wrote

When one has a lot of skiing expirience the moves come automatically, thus I have encouraged skiiers to learn them all just in case they are needed.

This probably is the BIGGEST difference between Ott, Fastman, Rusty group and PMTS supporters.

Posts on this forum and my friends who attended recent Harb Ski Systems camps tell me story after story about Harald and Diana taking apart technique of many long time skiers including highly certified PSIA instructors or even Demo Team members and improving their skiing noticeably by removing the steering/rotary elements.

Your statement contradicts one of the most current Harald post: ?State of Training?.
Ott, it is not like that for the rest of us. You maybe the only individual on this planet who does not have bad habits!

Robert

[Ott Gangl]

>>>> taking apart technique of many long time skiers including highly certified PSIA instructors or even Demo Team members and improving their skiing noticeably by removing the steering/rotary elements<<<

OK, I have no argument with that. It is great that those instructors are learning new moves, that doesn't mean they have forgotten what they learned during their skiing lives, they may just not use them unless required.

....Ott

[piggyslayer]

Ott wrote

OK, I have no argument with that. It is great that those instructors are learning new moves, that doesn't mean they have forgotten what they learned during their skiing lives, they may just not use them unless required.

I believe for most skiers doing these movements is not a choice they can easily make. That what bad habits are, something which is hard to break.
Its like aligning a knock kneed skier and expecting perfect carved parallel turn next day, it is just not that easy.

Ott, I know you will not agree with me on this and neither does Rusty, Fastman and many others.
So let it be, we do not have to agree on everything, but this is what the difference is:
we (PMTS) do not reject steering because HH says so, we reject it because we believe it is a bad habit, habit very hard to break. You and ?the others? apparently do not believe it to be a bad habit.

Many (probably most) of us did go through the process of weeding it out, some are still in that process. So in fact we not just believe it is a habit hard to break, we know it.

Robert

[Ott Gangl]

Piggyslayer, if it's a bad habit just don't do it. Personally I don't think that any skill in skiing is bad, but I do think that there are always new things to learn and once you have learned them well you can use them automatically.

Let's say you are in a nice carve and a skier falls and slides six feet in front of you. There is really no time to think but you should automatically abort your carve and skate out in the other direction but if you are too close for that you do a gelaendesprung, jamming your poles stiff armed into the snow and rectracacting your feet to vault over the fallen skier, better than jamming your skis through his belly. And if you have never learned that or how to quickly get over your outside carving ski and rolling it on the outside edge and diverging it into a skateing move you will never be able to abort a carve effectively.

But that is just one of a thousand examples, after 61 years of skiing I am still eager to learn and that is why I am here. I have no stake in PSIA or PMTS but if either faction can teach me something new or different I am all ears. I'm retired and have a meager income but I'm sure that I will eventually get somewhere with someone who can teach me more about PMTS than I learned from the book and the forums.

I am looking forward to that. As far as steering goes I can take it or leave it.

...Ott

[John Mason]

we can't do that ott - polevaluting with your poles over the skier isn't in the book so we can't do it

[jclayton]

I have to say it's good to have Ott and Rusty here to bounce ideas and opinions off . I also have to say they have both been pretty civil , Ott should be a diplomat .
Having skied with HH I know he can hardly bear to see a skier using ineffective movements , an attitude that has probably been instrumental in producing such an effective system and makes him a great , if demanding , teacher .
I'd reckon Ott would be fun to ski with and hope to get to meet a few of you guys next year when over for an all mountain camp

[Ott Gangl]

John, that was probably an extreme example , just to show how many old tricks we learned which are no longer taught, like the kickturn for instance. I see skiers pulling over to the side of a trail and facing away from the slope. They crane their necks to see if anyone is coming then push themselves back into the slope ten feet until they have room enough to start a turn.

A kickturn, real easy now with the short skis will have him facing into the trail ready to go. Nobody seems to teach it anymore.

Lets drop the 'steering' and call it 'guiding'. We used to guide our straight skis differently than the shaped ones because of necessity, how they reacted.

No we guide them differently. If I use the blue marker spray paint to mark a spot to ski over and twenty feet below that another one and ten feet below that one another one and ask the skier to go over each one the skier has to use some kind of guiding to make and aim the longer one and consequently the second shorter one to hit the spots.

I may guide by varying pressure on the tongue of the boots and you may guide by increasing the tipping of the inside ski but nevertheless we use some kind of mechanics to make it over those spots.

....Ott