This isn't second hand

[jclayton]

It seems odd not to teach the kick turn , I would have thought it necessary for many situations . In Spain it's called " vuelta de Maria " i.e. "turn Maria over " , I don't know how this evolved if someone out there knows .

[piggyslayer]

Piggyslayer, if it's a bad habit just don't do it. Personally I don't think that any skill in skiing is bad, but I do think that there are always new things to learn and once you have learned them well you can use them automatically.

You proving my point. I and the rest of PMTS disagree on this topic. I think the first step to communication is to understand the differences in opinions.
This is the difference pin-pointed: For you is a bag of tricks and all apply.
For us there are tricks which cannot be easily unlearned or ?switched off? on demand, steering is one of them.

Let just agree at least on the fact that THIS is the point on which we do not agree.
I was hoping you acknowledge that difference, but you just reiterated your position. This position I understood before.

Ott, can you accept that someone (correctly or incorrectly) views certain movements as bad habit forming?
Bad habit is defined as a movement which:
you do not want to do, you may think you not doing it anymore, but if you look at yourself in the mirror you are upset to find out that ? you are doing it.

Robert

[Ott Gangl]

Piggyslayer, my wife and I just returned from skiing at our area, a half hour drive, and spent the day skiing with a PMTS type instructor who coincidently got fired for insisting on teaching something that is not in the PSIA progression, not because he didn't teach his students for quick comprehention, everyone agreed that his way advanced the students faster, but because when his students go to another area to take a lesson there is not a smooth interlacing.

Anyway, I skied the way I had read the first HH book but did not get the high edge angle with it that I normally do skiing my old way and he told me about having too much tip lead. So I arched my instep of the uphill ski and tipped it hard and then I could do it correctly, especially with some speed on, it's easier that way. So all day long my wife and I happily arched, tipped and pulled back our uphill skis to keep tips as even as we could and had lots of fun.

But when I got on the flatter area toward the lift I would do some wedeln which has nothing to do with the previous stuff....it kind of proves to me that I can switch into and out of ways to ski easily.

I agree wiuth you that an intermediate skier who always had a long tip lead and skied the old way would have that as a habit, but I didn't feel that switching was any hassle at all...when I learn something new it always feels quite awquard to me, out of my confort box, but then it becomes automatic pretty quick. Maybe because I had to switch so often from the different systems I had to ski, balance is not a problem no matter what I do...well, anyway...enjoy the big snow you got.

....Ott

[jclayton]

Guess what , it's been snowing all day in Mallorca . Big dump in the Pyrene?s , should be good for next week but all resorts closed today .
Ott , going out for a spin in the boat , going to try some brushed carves and wedeln over the waves .

[John Mason]

sounds like you had a fun day Ott.

I know what you mean. We did pivot slips the steering way at mt hood, but I can do something similar the fore/aft balance shift way too. You've got the experience and dynamic balance to ski whatever way you are inclined to at the moment. While the movements are totally different, doesn't mean people can't execute either - just not at the same time.

I remember an earlier post where you said something to the effect you didn't believe people would get fired for teaching a PMTS style approach. Sounds like you have found your exception.

When we ski sometime you'll have to show me what the tip lead thing is and what the idea of it was. All the instuction I've had from any source looked for no tip lead and focusing on pulling the inside foot back. Yet on epic I see discusions about tip lead as a good thing, so I don't get it. I know the inside leg tends to want to drift forward in a turn and you have to be, till it's automatic, conscious about pulling the "free foot" back.

I'll be in Akron working on a server in a few weeks. Is the place you ski near there?

[Rusty Guy]

I want to state clearly......if someone got fired for teaching PMTS the SSD ought to be tarred and feathered. I'm serious.

I don't have any objection to PMTS. My battle cry all along has been the blanket criticism of PSIA, teaching with a wedge, and or the idea that rotary/steering is either wrong and/or does not exist at the WC level.

That's it.

Did I hear someone say I was civil? Gee......thanks

As an aside, I have spent the day with Ott. He is the best.

Lastly. John I defy anyone to make a moderately dynamic "pure carved turn".....let's for example sake say 25-35 mph on a 20-30 degree slope and not have SOME degree of tip lead.

Tip lead is a function of stance width and where the skiis are oriented in relation to the pelvis. I did not say pulling the inside foot back was bad. I simply promise you tip lead cannot be avoided at all times.

Take a glance at ANY WC slalom skier.

[Ott Gangl]

Rusty, there was some bad blood between that instructor and the SSD and I think that his teaching differently, even though he never called it PMTS gave a good excuse...he told me today that a good snowbarder who had never skied came to him for a private and in an hour picked up RR turns and such, probably a holdover from snowboarding, so after the lesson was over the student wanted to go on the steepest hill we have and the instructor tagged along wanting to keep him safe and the SSD raked him over for taking a beginner skier on the steep hill. It was after the lesson and the instructor had no control over the student then. I'll let it go at that, but John, it wasn't totally what he taught, since that was known for a year.

Maybe because I am not that familiar with what we skied today, though I could make nice turns, I lacked the precision I have with my way of skiing. I would pick some point to ski over as I started the turn and it was not easy for my to control the diameter of the turn precisely, I think I didn't carry enough weight on the inside ski, it would start swimming since I concentrated so much on tipping. Initiation was no problem.

This was with my skis that have a 20 meter sidecut. I also have Atomic SL:11 skis and I'm going to try them. There are only minor differences from BB mantra of "Left tip left to go left, right tip right to go right" both PMTS and he use the inside ski as the guiding one.But please let's not argue about that. I think you are doing the right thing to avail yourself of as many ways to ski as possible, maybe you even will learn the mambo and to wedel

....Ott

[Ott Gangl]

Oh John, Boston Mills is 20 minutes from Akron, when will you be here?

...Ott

[piggyslayer]

Ott,

My only point was to spell out the difference in opinions, not to discuss it.
I do not think I will be able to persuade you.
What I see looking at advanced/expert skiers of many years and often many certifications is not what you see and that is OK. Both of us have right to our own opinions.
My only goal was to agree with you on what we do not agree on ? did we failed that?

Yes we have snow!!, most of it landed in south New England (around NJ and south NY), places more north are still not that great. I am enjoying whatever I can find. I ended up driving to the local ski area for nite skiing on Saturday (the day we got the storm). Driving took long. I ended up getting there at close to 7 PM and they closed every lift at 8PM because state has declared emergency. I ended up driving total of 5 hours on snow covered roads to ski little more than one hour. Hey, but I got to ski some cut-up and pushed powder in NJ!

Robert

[John Mason]

Maybe because I am not that familiar with what we skied today, though I could make nice turns, I lacked the precision I have with my way of skiing. I would pick some point to ski over as I started the turn and it was not easy for my to control the diameter of the turn precisely, I think I didn't carry enough weight on the inside ski, it would start swimming since I concentrated so much on tipping. Initiation was no problem.

Interesting. Something to add that your sorta PMTS instructor might not have covered is, before you start tipping that "free foot", the release of pressure on that foot that makes it the free foot occurs before transition. This release of pressure puts you on your LTE of your uphill ski. It helps, in the precision, to be ready for that and not let that foot simply go flat with the pressure, but to keep holding its edge. As you tip the inside/downhill ski you should be able to feel the outside/uphill ski roll smoothly from it's LTE to it's BTE into the new turn. Often, I've seen people not be ready for the pressure on the LTE of the uphill ski and then this turn becomes a sloppy mess.

This is not a step uphill either as the body is moving over the skis from the release/flexion of the downhill/outside ski as the last turn is ending.

Of course, if you want complete precision, the closer you can make this be to 2 lines in the snow, the more precise the turn will be. On the little Akron slope, I would think the shorter radius the ski the better. Otherwise, you might as well shush down and hockey stop. One turn per run!

[John Mason]

Do you want to ski Sunday? I'll see if I can talk my brother out of skiing perfect north Sunday.

How are the crowds there on a Sunday?

[Ott Gangl]

Forget Sunday. We never ski on weekends, 20 minute lift lines for a 20 second run.

...Ott

[Real Skier]

Rusty. Maybe you miss the point. The idea is not to get specific about tip lead or the amount. The idea is to achieve less tip lead and by using the action of pulling the inside foot back you will reduce tip lead.

My turns always come through with more ease after I remember to begin with inside foot pull back. It must be because other beneficial kinetic chain reactions come from this one simple move.

Harald designed PMTS or his movement system with simplicity and lack of confusing repetition and duplication of movement. This is one obvious example where his movement understanding, again, exceeds others who write skiing technique.