How critical are base/edge angles to PMTS?

[JohnMoore]

I see that most PMTSers seem to recommend something like 0.7 to 1 deg base and 2 to 3 deg side angles for skis. My own skis are tuned to 1 base, 2 side, as a kind of general purpose compromise. But if I hire skis (which I may on occasion), the angles will be what they set in that shop as their standard, and I know of at least one place where I've asked where it's 1 deg base, 1 deg side.

Now, how much of a difference in general is that going to make to my aspiring PMTS skiing? Is it going to be subtle and easily worked around, or would I find myself having difficulty doing the proper PMTS moves without some kind of compensation/exaggeration, in which case what would that be likely to be? Would it compromise my ability to hold an edge I could trust for carving my turns on hard snow?

I am all too aware that a lot of equipment these days is made with the assumption that people will be skidding their turns because carving is too hard to learn properly, and maybe the standard tuning favoured by a lot of hire shops makes the same assumption?

[NoCleverName]

Unless you ski in the Northeast US, don't worry about the edge angles. In fact, those western skiers talk big about edge angles but, trust me, they don't have any idea what they're for. I doubt for them they even have to be sharp. Or present.

Edge angle means nothing in powder, crud, windblown, crusty, Sierra cement, raw "snow" fresh from the guns, corn, probably moguls, and anything that was corduroy in the morning. It means something on hard snow and soft ice. The jury is still out on boilerplate and anything scrapped clean by a boarder. Parking lot-style ice ...doesn't help there. Likewise end-of-the-day ice created by too many skiers on a narrow track. (Maybe like Eskimos have all the legendary names for snow, New Englander's have a nuanced view of ice). Did I mention islands of soft snow separated in a sea of old plate? The backs of re-frozen no-rhythm bumps? The exit ramps from certain lifts? Now sleet, in windblown sleet edges might be useful.

So we've got bigger worries than the odd degree of edge angle.

I would say the killer to learning PMTS is width and big rocker. Of course, once you know PMTS, my understanding is that width and big rocker is unnecessary.

[jbotti]

1 base 2 side is fine for most softer, friendly conditions. If you are skiing on ice or hard man made snow 3 degrees on the side will make a big difference in edge hold. Personally there isn't much downside to 3 degrees side, so that's where I keep the bulk of my skis.

[HeluvaSkier]

I think "good tune" is more important than the angles the ski is tuned at. Anything between .5-1 on the base and 1-4 on the side should be fine AS LONG AS it is maintained. A beat-up, burred, detuned, .5/3 tune will have less grip than a well maintained 1/0. Take care of your skis and they will take care of you.

[h.harb]

This season as long as they are clean 1 base and 2 side from the factory is even working great. I keep mine .7 base and 3 side. Last year you would be in series S--t with this set up. Last season until March .7 base 3 side and sharpen every day, that's if you wanted to hold and carve.

[JohnMoore]

I think "good tune" is more important than the angles the ski is tuned at. Anything between .5-1 on the base and 1-4 on the side should be fine AS LONG AS it is maintained. A beat-up, burred, detuned, .5/3 tune will have less grip than a well maintained 1/0. Take care of your skis and they will take care of you.

Well, they're not my skis, so I have to trust that the shop does indeed maintain them well. But nonetheless this is quite encouraging - I suspect the shop in question does. It's hypothetical for me at the moment, as I was just wondering about hiring some narrower more piste-oriented skis than the ones I'm taking (which have 90mm waist) , if we only end up with hard snow in the resort I'm heading off to shortly. As I mentioned, my own skis are tuned to 2/1. I'll likely need them sharpened, though, and have neither the tools nor the skills to do this myself, so will end up handing them over to the shop and just hoping they do a good job. If they end up 1/1 but with sharp edges and burr-free, that sounds like it should still be OK for me.

Harald's take on this makes me a little more doubtful, though. Still, I'm assuming his demands on the skis are rather greater than mine .

[Max_501]

Edge angle means nothing in powder, crud, windblown, crusty, Sierra cement, raw "snow" fresh from the guns, corn, probably moguls, and anything that was corduroy in the morning.

That statement is nearly 100% incorrect.

[NoCleverName]

That statement is nearly 100% incorrect.

Anytime the ski is buried such that the mechanical contact and means of support is no longer the "edge", then the "edge angle" means nothing. To cause turning, it is the curve of the bent, tipped ski in contact with the snow, keeping the ski in the channel of snow, supported as it were by the walls of that channel. The "edge angle" and for that matter the edge "sharpness" is of little consequence. I chose the representative snow conditions to be exactly that, where the ski, buried in a channel, is supported by contact with the channel walls, not riding high on a strong surface where there is no chance for sidewall support.

Of course, having a clean, reasonably sharp edge and something that resembles an appropriate angle is useful, but not decisive, in non-supportive snow conditions. And because it's not always that easy to find truly appropriate conditions for full use of the "edge", I wouldn't want anyone to over think edge angle. It's probably more important out here, but even then, conditions are problematical for any edge. What you guys out west call ice we call packed powder. (In fairness, I've skied eastern conditions out west a lot; but then again, you don't see too many others on the trails when that happens).

I WILL agree, though, that PMTS is probably best learned WHEN conditions demand edges, because that's when you learn the value of CA and, in particular, CB.

So as far as edge angles are concerned, who cares. But ALIGNMENT, now that's really important and a degree --- and more so a couple of degrees -- now THAT is important.

[Max_501]

Anytime the ski is buried such that the mechanical contact and means of support is no longer the "edge", then the "edge angle" means nothing.

Can a ski be buried and still be on a firm surface?

Let me be crystal clear here. Your original statement really was close to 100% incorrect for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that many of us must traverse 50 degree ice crusted slopes to get to bottomless pow. I'm thinking that the only case where your statement was correct is with bottomless pow from top to bottom which doesn't exist in most venues.

[HeluvaSkier]

Wasn't the original question about tune? I think we are making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

[Max_501]

I think we are making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

If you found yourself on a 50 degree ice covered traverse with a crappy tune would it be a mole hill?

If you were skiing set up crud on a 40 degree slope with a .5 base bevel and hooking up like mad would it be a mole hill?

[HeluvaSkier]

If you found yourself on a 50 degree ice covered traverse with a crappy tune would it be a mole hill?

If you were skiing set up crud on a 40 degree slope with a .5 base bevel and hooking up like mad would it be a mole hill?

I usually ski the same tune on all my skis; so it probably wouldn't make a difference as long as it was a decent tune. Wide skis get a 1 base; front side skis get a .5 base. All skis get a good tune. No need for conditions this, terrain that, for determining optimal base bevel for recreational skiing. Just make sure there's a useable edge there for when you need it.

[Max_501]

I usually ski the same tune on all my skis; so it probably wouldn't make a difference as long as it was a decent tune. Wide skis get a 1 base; front side skis get a .5 base. All skis get a good tune. No need for conditions this, terrain that, for determining optimal base bevel for recreational skiing. Just make sure there's a useable edge there for when you need it.

Agreed 100%. And I tune my skis the same.

[JohnMoore]

I've established that the shop in question can tune my skis how I require. At least that's what I interpret from this (the guy's Italian):

"we can make edge with different angles: from 90° to 87° for the side, so, consequently, the base changes by ½ degree every time."

Out of curiosity, is there any reason why I would NOT want to go for 3 degrees side (or 87 degrees, in his terms)? Would this require a lot more from my skiing ability?

[Ken]

The more acute the angle the bigger piece of steel that will be knocked out when you hit a rock.

There are still a few ski tuners who de-tune the tips & tails. We want sharp edges all the way to the snow contact points on both ends. The upward curve of the shovel can be rounded over so it doesn't catch the side of an icy rut and grab.

Or, try 0.75° base, feathered to 1° toward the tip & tail.