How critical are base/edge angles to PMTS?

[Matt]

If you found yourself on a 50 degree ice covered traverse with a crappy tune would it be a mole hill?

If you were skiing set up crud on a 40 degree slope with a .5 base bevel and hooking up like mad would it be a mole hill?

I usually ski the same tune on all my skis; so it probably wouldn't make a difference as long as it was a decent tune. Wide skis get a 1 base; front side skis get a .5 base. All skis get a good tune. No need for conditions this, terrain that, for determining optimal base bevel for recreational skiing. Just make sure there's a useable edge there for when you need it.

What is the reason you have larger base bevel on wide skis?

[NoCleverName]

You can be pendantic, Max. The question was "angles appropriate to learn PMTS", not the proper tune for a decent of Everest. My point is that there is no "best" or even "required" angles. If there were, PMTS would not be a very good system, would it?

[JohnMoore]

My point is that there is no "best" or even "required" angles. If there were, PMTS would not be a very good system, would it?

There is a general point here which I think is worth noting, as it's something I've become aware over some years of frequenting this forum. In a very focussed forum like this, it's easy to come to regard what are people's preferences, repeated often enough and by enough people, as mandatory requirements, prerequisites if you like, for PMTS. For example, some years back I think someone browsing this forum might have come to the conclusion that unless they were skiing on Head skis, they would simply not be able to ski the PMTS way. Similarly with Head boots. I have no doubt that the best skis for PMTS may well have been Head ones, but I would be very surprised if there weren't a bunch of skis from other manufacturers, who don't get much of a mention on here, that were not far behind. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that anyone has come out and baldly stated this - it's just the impression one gets when everybody who posts is skiing on Head Supershapes, say.

The edge angles question is, to my mind, another such area. It's easy to come to the conclusion that unless I have 3 deg side and 0.5-1 deg base angles on my skis, I won't be able to ski PMTS properly. I really, really hope this is not the case, and that it is only a preference, something that gives a bit of an advantage. Not just for my sake, but for the myriad people out there who hire skis, say, and don't have the total control over their gear that the serious PMTSers do.

[Max_501]

The question was "angles appropriate to learn PMTS"

This thread is titled:

How critical are base/edge angles to PMTS?

My point is that there is no "best" or even "required" angles.

Then your point is off base because there really are "best" angles for the conditions, terrain, and your level of skiing.

If there were, PMTS would not be a very good system, would it?

I have no idea how you jumped to that conclusion.

[Max_501]

The edge angles question is, to my mind, another such area. It's easy to come to the conclusion that unless I have 3 deg side and 0.5-1 deg base angles on my skis, I won't be able to ski PMTS properly.

Let me give you an example. If you hire a ski that started with a 1 degree base bevel at the beginning of the season and that edge has been worn to a 1.5 or 2 degree base edge then it will respond in a sluggish manner when tipped. You have to tip a 2 degree base much farther than a .5 to get the ski to respond. It really is more difficult to learn on a 1.5 or 2 degree base because a less skilled skier will often tail push or pivot the ski to find that precious edge grip because they haven't developed the skills needed to ski a highly beveled base. I freaking hate anything over 1 degree. Unfortunately most skiers are on base edge angles over 1 degree due to wear - we call these "swivel sticks".

BTW, the original Head Supershape really was the best ski we found for PMTS skiers. That ski is just awesome for so many levels of skiers. We tried many others but nothing could match it.

[JohnMoore]

Let me give you an example. If you hire a ski that started with a 1 degree base bevel at the beginning of the season and that edge has been worn to a 1.5 or 2 degree base edge then it will respond in a sluggish manner when tipped. You have to tip a 2 degree base much farther than a .5 to get the ski to respond. It really is more difficult to learn on a 1.5 or 2 degree base because a less skilled skier will often tail push or pivot the ski to find that precious edge grip because they haven't developed the skills needed to ski a highly beveled base. I freaking hate anything over 1 degree. Unfortunately most skiers are on base edge angles over 1 degree due to wear - we call these "swivel sticks"

I know very little about ski tuning, so please forgive my naive question. I was under the impression that a responsible ski hire shop would assess the skis after each hire, and if necessary sharpen them, so they may end up being sharpened every week. At least, I think that's what they do at the shop I'll be using in Gressoney, Italy. Are you suggesting that even though they may be sharpened, the edge angles would change over the course of a hire season?

[deicreo]

...Are you suggesting that even though they may be sharpened, the edge angles would change over the course of a hire season?

The base bevel is established once in while. Always after base grinding. The base bevel should always be checked even if the ski is new and manufacturer says the initial set up is .5/88. It really takes some experience to get to the point when you can check by yourself what base bevel is put on the ski.

So, yes, the base bevel can change over the season since it is established lets say once a year, whereas side edge can be sharpen and reestablished every day. What is worse base bevel changes only by growing;)

In this very informative video Toko serviceman, Wili Wiltz talks about base bevel tuning:

[Max_501]

Are you suggesting that even though they may be sharpened, the edge angles would change over the course of a hire season?

Yes sir. The base edge bevel will typically start at 1 degree and grow from there. It won't get back to 1 until they put a fresh base grind on it, which isn't often in many cases.

[JohnMoore]

I didn't know that! It kind of makes me think that if it really is that critical for PMTS skiing, then one can pretty well forget about PMTS with hired skis. That's quite a big consideration over here in Europe, where most UK skiers will hire their skis in the resorts (in the Alps, say) because ski carriage charges have got so ridiculously high. This year will be the first time in 8 years that I've actually taken my own skis.

[Max_501]

I didn't know that! It kind of makes me think that if it really is that critical for PMTS skiing, then one can pretty well forget about PMTS with hired skis.

I don't know if I'd go that far but you need to understand the difference in the way skis with different base bevels perform. Tip, tip, and tip more.

[HeluvaSkier]

What is the reason you have larger base bevel on wide skis?

So the base edge doesn't hook or grab as early as you'd want it to on a hard snow ski. It makes the edge more forgiving.

[Max_501]

So the base edge doesn't hook or grab as early as you'd want it to on a hard snow ski. It makes the edge more forgiving.

And this can make a huge difference in difficult off piste conditions.

[Matt]

So the base edge doesn't hook or grab as early as you'd want it to on a hard snow ski. It makes the edge more forgiving.

And this can make a huge difference in difficult off piste conditions.

Ok, I see, so it is more about where the skis will be used rather than the width.
If I use my wide skis on groomers I could still use a .5 bevel, but since the decision is once per season at best it is better to go for a bevel where I will be using it the most.

[HighAngles]

I don't want to further complicate this discussion, but I thought I would mention another approach that I've used on a couple pairs of my skis this season that has worked very well. The approach uses a "progressive" variable base edge bevel. Progressive means that the bevel is variable down the length of the ski. I have used 1.0* out at the tips and tails, 0.7* in the forebody and just behind the binding heel, and 0.5* underfoot (directly below the binding area).

So if you have control of your edge bevels (you're doing them yourself and you have the experience to set them correctly) or you have a trusted shop that knows what they're doing, then this approach can give you the best of both worlds; a more "relaxed" base bevel out on the tips and tails with a more responsive base bevel underfoot. This is clearly a more advanced approach, but should be considered in a more complete discussion of base bevels for high performance skiing.

[Max_501]

So if you have control of your edge bevels (you're doing them yourself and you have the experience to set them correctly) or you have a trusted shop that knows what they're doing, then this approach can give you the best of both worlds; a more "relaxed" base bevel out on the tips and tails with a more responsive base bevel underfoot. This is clearly a more advanced approach, but should be considered in a more complete discussion of base bevels for high performance skiing.

Is progressive really the best of both worlds for anything but a midfat one ski quiver?

Once a skier has developed the skills they'll probably want a .5 base bevel tip to tail on a front side carver because the moment they tip the ski they want the tips and tail to hook up. But a progressive bevel delays the hookup on a front side caver.

For an offpiste ski I want the the ski at 1 degree so it doesn't hookup in cruddy grabby conditions without my permission. Sure, I could probably get away with .5 under the foot if the tip/tail are 1 degree, but it doesn't add to the ski's performance in off piste conditions, and the aggressive bevel underfoot may contribute to the ski being harder to control because the .5 may have a tendency to be grabby.