ICE !!! to SLICE !!!

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ICE !!! to SLICE !!!

Postby jclayton » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:26 pm

Lots of ice in Val d'Isere last week on the steep runs . Well hard pack really not real ice except up on the glacier .

How to get a grip ? I tried all the Phantom move techniques , hip counter , pulling the free ( freer ) ski back as agressively as I could but still encountering problems .

I feel that I can't pull my freer foot back enough to keep my weight far enough forward because of the steepness . It feels awkward and I feel there is not enough room between me ( the stance leg ) and the slope .

I exaggerate the lift and push forward motion of the pole plant arm which gives me more grip than I used to have . This works when the snow is relatively soft but not in the after noon when it has all been scraped off ( Face de Bellevarde especially )

I do ski aggressively trying to get the body into the turn immediately after the ankle starts the turn and refuse to just give up and scrape my way down . Any help , HH , skiersynergy et al .

I realise this was sort of started by Tommy but thought it would be a good idea to start a specific topic . I'm sure there are lots of you out there with the same problem .

My main problem, I guess , is that what works well on good snow and reasonably steep slopes, falls apart on steeper, icier stuff .

I can't get to a camp until next year so any assistance for the rest of this season would be more than welcome . It doesn't look like Europe is going to have a great powder year either . Not like you lucky lot over there .

Also assistance I have had here on other subjects , eg pole plant , has been most constructive .
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Postby jclayton » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:36 pm

I have been having some success on easier slopes now feeling the hip counter by curving my back and pushing the hips forward and up ( pelvis tilt ) . ON ice I find it very much more difficult . Is this an important move on ice .

Harald gave some good advice in Tommy's post but it was a bit brief .
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Postby milesb » Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:46 pm

Stay off the steeps when it's icy. It's not worth the risk of injury.
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Postby jclayton » Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:14 am

Can't resist the call of the mountain . I'm talking about 30 - 45 ? not 60 .
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Postby tommy » Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:29 am

Me too would be really interested in any in-depth answers to JC's questions.

Meanwhile, I was wondering how much influence it would have to increase side edge bevel for skiing ice ? My atomics come with 3 deg side edge bevel, and 1 deg base. I've heard recommendations to go with 4-5 on side, and maybe even to reduce base bevel.

My take on this so far has been that until my technique is "perfect", the help I'd have from increasing side bevel would probably be not much, but I'd be curious on your experiences.

Also, what's the drawback(s) on increasing bevel (in addition to wearing out the edges faster), in terms of technique ? less forgiving ?

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Postby jclayton » Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:23 am

I ski with 1? base and 2? side bevel . Perhaps 3? side would be a help but much more and I think the edges would blunt too quickly for all day use . Racers , I beleive , have their edges done everyday so they only need them sharp for 1 o 2 runs per day . ( Not being up to date with race tuning techniques ) . Opinions from the pros ?
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Postby Joseph » Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:18 am

Being and eastern skiier originally--soon to be again--I know a few things about sking the ice. First, when it comes to bevel, you don't need any more than a 3 degree on the sides to hold. As a matter of fact, you can hold at 90 if you know what you're doing movement wise. The base bevel I use is about a half degree. This is a little quicker to engage than a 1 degree, because when the ski is tipped, it contacts the snow a little more quickly than the 1. Not that there's anything wrong with a 1 degree for all practical purposes. If you put more than 3 on the sides, you pretty much resign that ski to ice ripping status, you might not want to take that ski in the bumps again, you will find a 4+ bevel less forigiving in all mountaing conditions. Plus, you don't need a ski to be that sharp.

Tommy--FYI Nobody's technique is perfect. Yours is just probably beyond that observer's ability to comment effectively.

JC--Don't just focus on pulling the free foot back. If you're pulling the free foot back, but your stance foot is ahead of your hips, you still don't have any power on the ice. Pull the stance foot under your hips until your femur is vertical to your spine this will allow you to engage the tip of your ski. Also counter doesn't only come from the hip. Leaning your upper body in the opposite direction of the tipping will allow for more pressure on the stance ski. Try it statically first. As you tip your feet one way, move your upperbody the other way to counterbalance. Also, moving your pelvis to vertical is good, but the arching of the back is not so good, try and keep your spine vertical--this will reduce your risk of back injury.

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Postby piggyslayer » Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:48 pm

Living in NJ, I am too interested in this thread.

First a disclaimer, I will cover something that you guys most likely can do in your sleep. It helps me to negotiate icy snow conditions so I will post it, maybe it will help someone.

The thing that works for me on ice is making sure that I do not overpower end of my turn. I try to flex/pull up legs at the bottom of each turn. One thing (probably the only thing) good about ice is that it gives immediate feedback and it is easy to sense when you skis grip and they skid. I pull up the knees only as much as needed to feel grip.
Once the grip is established at the bottom, it tends to extend over to all phases of the turn. Obviously it is important to do these turns on edges, I am talking the whole turn not only trying to finish turns on edges. All Haralds advise about upper C applies here.

If skiing with icy spots, I try to time my turn transition on ice so that I can practice gripping at the end of each turn and monitor my upper C grip..

I believe one of the big problems many skier have on ice (and I am not implying that Tommy or JC do it) is that they tend to try too much to find grippage at the end of each turn by stiffening the legs. This tends to have the opposite effect (more skid) or results in locked traverses.

Robert
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Postby Harrison » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:57 pm

1.commit your your edges-make sure they're sharp
2. do not weight your inside ski
3. pull your skis back at release
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