Counter Balance????

[darkmatter]

Thanks Max501, still navigating around the site--glad you pointed that out... Not sure why I ended up posting on this page...probably the picture of Bode I guess...

[geoffda]

I'm amazed no one has commented on, how what Bode is showing here, is exactly what we were practicing during our camps.

So I'm asking the question do you see how PMTS movements are derived from these skiers? Is anyone making this connection to PMTS training and instruction?????? Or am I fooling myself to think the training we use is working and the understanding is getting through? Help!!!!

Yep. The thing that struck me especially was the inside hand/shoulder position. You don't get that by accident. When I saw that shot, my first thought was, "Wow! Bode is actually *working* on counter-balance!" Other than the fact he is getting monstrous tipping angles, I've seen that same picture many times at camps when somebody is working on exaggerating counter-balance.

[h.harb]

Thanks Geoff. The best are doing what we teach in PMTS. Get on it, bring it and you to can ski like the best. This advertisement was approved by Harb Ski Systems and hated by the rest.

[arothafel]

Well... maybe not what's being asked for regarding PMTS... but the first thing that jumped out at me was the AMOUNT of vertical separation between skis. His tipping free foot is above his knee..! There may be plenty of others, but the only other picture I've seen like that was one of Schlopy... a few years back.

[Ihamilton]

I'm amazed no one has commented on, how what Bode is showing here, is exactly what we were practicing during our camps.

So I'm asking the question do you see how PMTS movements are derived from these skiers? Is anyone making this connection to PMTS training and instruction?????? Or am I fooling myself to think the training we use is working and the understanding is getting through? Help!!!!

At the WB camp, HH spent a lot of time on hand movements. In this photo I see that the right hand and pole are right over the right foot, couldn't be better. The left hand is rising and moving toward the LTE of the inside ski. Right out of the coaching. The torso goes straight up and if we stood Bode up his feet would be together. Classic pmts.
Btw, all of the non professional skiers at WB were blown away by the camp. They had no idea it would be so good. The best result is their renewed love of skiing. Riding on the chair they point out the backward hand movements of the other skiers including the instructors, outside hand forward, inside hand back.

[h.harb]

I guess what I'm a little confused about is, how no discussion is initiated, especially by skiers who have had numerous PMTS experiences, about the recognition of similarities between WC skiers and what they perceive that they are learning. And how little or no commentary is started about how they see the same things happening or similar things happening, as what the World Cup skiers are doing.

Maybe I should stop trying to engage the forum membership at that level? Am I giving PMTS skiers too much acknowledgment of how they relate their skiing, and how they relate to the best skiers?

Should I dummy it down some? Really it's for your benefit, if I'm wasting my time, it would be good to know.

[h.harb]

I know there is a new and growing constituency here. I'm not referring to the new folks, it's understandable that a newer skier to PMTS might not grasp the nuances. However there are over 200 veterans on the forum.

[Basil j]

I know there is a new and growing constituency here. I'm not referring to the new folks, it's understandable that a newer skier to PMTS might not grasp the nuances. However there are over 200 veterans on the forum.

HH as a newbie on these boards, I say absolutely do not Dumb it down! I know that Racing has lost some of it's appeal to some of the younger generation, but ski racers still capture the very best in techniques in the world, and for us mere mortals, it gives us something to try to emulate and use as a kind of benchmark. Some of the best free skiers in the world are former racers and I think that is lost in the media. Hucking cliffs and straight lining Alaskan mountains may be where the ski movies are focusing today, but for studying ski technique, the best lab is the race course and world cup. That is where the best skiers in the world hone their craft and give us the best examples and reference points to improve our own skiing. At least that is my humble opinion.

[CO_Steve]

I guess what I'm a little confused about is, how no discussion is initiated, especially by skiers who have had numerous PMTS experiences, about the recognition of similarities between WC skiers and what they perceive that they are learning. And how little or no commentary is started about how they see the same things happening or similar things happening, as what the World Cup skiers are doing.

.

Although I clearly understand that after three years I'm attempting to perform the same movements as WC skiers my results fall so pathetically short of that standard that I'd be better served comparing my golf swing with Tiger Woods.

I do ski better though, and that what really counts for me.

[Max_501]

Thanks Max501, still navigating around the site--glad you pointed that out...

Here's a bunch of vidoes that will get you going with PMTS:

PMTS - Dryland Training with a Slantboard

PMTS - Phantom Move

PMTS - Essentials of skiing

PMTS - Mastering the Two Footed Release

PMTS - Bullet Proof Short Turn (BPST)

PMTS - Movements for Advancing Students

PMTS - Bumps and Steeps

[Max_501]

I guess what I'm a little confused about is, how no discussion is initiated, especially by skiers who have had numerous PMTS experiences, about the recognition of similarities between WC skiers and what they perceive that they are learning. And how little or no commentary is started about how they see the same things happening or similar things happening, as what the World Cup skiers are doing.

Skiers with PMTS experience already know that following what you teach leads to WC technique. We TOTALLY get it so its not a surprise to see WC racers demonstrating the Essentials of PMTS. Here's a link to an old thread from 2007. I'm sure others have looked at their video and discovered the same thing.

PMTS Really Works

[NoCleverName]

Well, Bodie's run wasn't exactly the purest thing in the world. I saw some of the Beaver Creek, both men and women, on the "telly". His training run was survival ... I suppose pmts principles played a role but good luck seeing them during quite a bit of his performance. That boy's just too strong to relate to what us mere mortals can accomplish on the slopes ... not to mention things happen real fast and the camera angles aren't always the best.

On the other hand, the women seem to exhibit more technique simply because they don't have the same strength (although I imagine they could bench each and every one of us!). Those super-slo-mo shots were instructive even though they didn't last long enough. I wonder if one could wrest more complete super-slo-mo footage out of CBS?

I guess the proof is in the results. The racers exhibiting the PMTS ideals seem to finish near the top. Given that the spread of times isn't huge and given differences in ski prep, tactics, start position and conditions, and sheer luck on the course, it would seem that the closer you adhere to PMTS principles the better your chances of edging out ahead.

Then, too, the trails I ski don't resemble Birds of Prey and I'm not going 40+, so the likelihood of me glancing down to see one of my knees inches below my face is pretty close to zero. On the other hand, when I inadvertently ski the PMTS way, it's considerably less stressful on the body and I can handle a much wider range of conditions. So for me, shots of some geezer handling crud fields with aplomb while using PMTS is much more meaningful than anything on the WC circuit (no, I don't mean you HH!). And I think that might be true for a lot of the members here.

So the beauty of PMTS is that it's NOT just for getting on the podium. If that's all it were good for I wouldn't have the slightest interest. For me, it's proven to be good for handling varying conditions, reducing the energy needed, and significantly lowering the chance of injury. And these benefits come WITHOUT having to be a hardened, highly skilled athlete.

So what's not to like?

[HighAngles]

I guess what I'm a little confused about is, how no discussion is initiated, especially by skiers who have had numerous PMTS experiences, about the recognition of similarities between WC skiers and what they perceive that they are learning. And how little or no commentary is started about how they see the same things happening or similar things happening, as what the World Cup skiers are doing.

For me the shot of Bode reinforces my recently acquired deeper understanding of the relationship between counterbalancing and counteracting. As I've learned to achieve higher edge angles in my skiing, I now get that counteracting (using rotation about the stance leg hip socket) enables me to develop higher amounts of counterbalancing as the turn develops (especially beyond the turn apex). Without CA, my CB can only get so far before my range of motion in CB is exhausted (upper/lower body separation). Without CA, and after my CB range is spent, I end up inclining into the hill in a feeble attempt to get to the higher edge angles.

This idea is roughly analogous to how our amount of tipping is limited if we do not flex. We must flex to tip or you won't be tipping much at all. Similarly we must CA to take CB to its fullest range possible. If you want your tipping to progressively increase as the turn develops, then the amount of CB must also progressively increase, and in turn that means that the CA must also progressively increase. So when I see shots of Bode (or Ted, or Marcel) in super high edge angle turns, I'm thinking about what movements it takes to get into that position and of course those movement thoughts are directly connected to the PMTS coaching that I have received.

[go_large_or_go_home]

HH,
Don't go changing anything about your posts...I have only just found this thread - having crossed the Atlantic 6 times in the past 6days, I am a bit behind....
I just flew 4 Team GB racers back from calgary - racing up at lake Louise...they are all destined for Sochi 2014.
Anyway, I had a long chat with one of the guys about all things racing/ coaching alignment etc etc. I talked about you in great detail, explaining the system and how it takes wc movements of the best and distils them down to form the backbone of pmts.
A few months back, I used the pmts checklist and added photos - taken from this forum and your blog to emphasise/ highlight the various points...this shot of bode would have been amazing....anyway, he was genuinely interested and agreed that there was indeed a disconnect between the way he skis and what he is 'allowed' to teach under a BS TTS - in his case BASI....
Keep up with the posts, we are all soaking it up and learning....I guess with the recent reshuffle of the forum, it will take time for some of these threads to be picked up...

[Bolter]

I spent 20 years being perplexed by the skiing of the WC top tier. My PSIA education did nothing but confuse me, there was no connection from the PSIA teaching methodology and progressions I used every day to the skiing of WC athletes.

Now when I coach kids and view WC- I am prepared, I have a direct connection from my own skiing movements to the movements of the elite. This is only possible with the knowledge and practical application of PMTS.

IMO there is no better proof that PMTS is the final word.

Harald, I am sorry to tell you that you can not dumb PMTS down- the basis of PMTS is factual, a series of truths that define the reality of modern expert and WC Alpine ski racing. Please never underestimate the importance of your WC skiing analysis on this forum. The readers are not perplexed, there is a learning curve but the info is here! They may be silent but I know they are reading, watching and absolutely doing their best to apply it to their own skiing.

The posts by Harald (insights that I use as a constant resource for my own development and understanding) that dig into the skiing of the WC are really no different than the movement assessments that I go through with a junior racer or recreational skiing parent. The essentials are there or they are not. No matter the age, ability or speed. It is all a matter of degree. Having Haralds posts on WC skiing available in his blog is like having him at our club. Our kids review their own video with the blog pictures and Haralds comments open on my PC. PMTS connects the kids DIRECTLY to WC skiing. This is one the most powerful tools I have. I can literally connect the junior to WC. They love it! A so do I.