Fist day on the snow yesterday Using PMTS-Good Day!

[h.harb]

If you think you need force to tip the inside knee, that is the wrong idea, we don tip the knee in PMTS to begin with and if you need force to tip the ski, you are doing it wrong. The first principle of PMTS is balance, even before tipping. If you are not balancing on the other foot, you can't tip the inside foot. THis is on the first instructions and on the beginning pages of my books, it a basic principle. What this tells me is that you are not reading and you are moving too far ahead without understanding or performing the very first steps properly.

[geoffda]

One thing worth mentioning about knee drive--it hurts! When you try to "drive" your knees, you have to use gross muscles and it is very difficult to get the knees moving correctly without putting torque on them. Once you go down that road, it seems very natural (if painful) to keep driving the outside knee to try to create grip. This is classic knee angulation and it is not good for you. Tipping with the feet avoids all that. The femurs rotate naturally as a side effect of tipping, so you will never end up applying torque to the knees if you are tipping with the feet. As it turns out, even that little bit of rotation can be a problem when it comes to keeping the skis gripping, so we actually move the hips in the opposite direction which counteracts that rotation. In any event, one of the many benefits of skiing the PMTS way is that our knees never hurt at the end of the day--even if we've been doing nothing but skiing hard snow. Like Max_501 said above, it's all about using fine motor skills to activate the kinetic chain and then let momentum and gravity do the rest. Tipping is a very hard concept to grasp, but it requires surprisingly little effort once you understand it.

[cheesehead]

The discussion you linked is very relevant to what I have been getting wrong. I worked on it today and my effort needs to into pullback it driving my knee out. At least I can join those folks in having something to unlearn.
Thanks all for the help in correcting my problem

[Basil j]

Max501 post, "Like". And right on target.

HH says:
Nothing in PMTS movements and direction is dated, only time is dated. The time for those that are not using PMTS, really shows how dated they are.

HH
I didn't mean the content was dated, rather that the film quality of the dvd I received is pretty faded and it looks like it was filmed on film made 20 years ago.

[Basil j]

One thing worth mentioning about knee drive--it hurts! When you try to "drive" your knees, you have to use gross muscles and it is very difficult to get the knees moving correctly without putting torque on them. Once you go down that road, it seems very natural (if painful) to keep driving the outside knee to try to create grip. This is classic knee angulation and it is not good for you. Tipping with the feet avoids all that. The femurs rotate naturally as a side effect of tipping, so you will never end up applying torque to the knees if you are tipping with the feet. As it turns out, even that little bit of rotation can be a problem when it comes to keeping the skis gripping, so we actually move the hips in the opposite direction which counteracts that rotation. In any event, one of the many benefits of skiing the PMTS way is that our knees never hurt at the end of the day--even if we've been doing nothing but skiing hard snow. Like Max_501 said above, it's all about using fine motor skills to activate the kinetic chain and then let momentum and gravity do the rest. Tipping is a very hard concept to grasp, but it requires surprisingly little effort once you understand it.

I was on the hill with a guy today that skis this way. He gets some pretty good angles, but ultimately he is in an A frame half of the time and really drives his outside Knee into every turn. he looks like he is working real hard, driving every turn. He complains that he gets sore knees from skiing. I told him to Google "PMTS /tipping" and talk to me next week during Xmas break. He thought I was skiing great today and noticed I was staying low to the snow and really getting on my edges early with a narrow stance, "He asked If I had gotten "new skis"..LOL But then noticed I was on my 3 year old Speed courses. I did not get into any more detail with him. I told him, "watch the videos and we'll talk next week." I get weird mixed reactions from my ski circle friends when they ask why I want to change the way I ski. It is amazing how many decent skiers I know, that could be great get skiers if they spend a little energy working on some minor changes. They would rather go out and just ski, which is fine by me, but I am never satisfied and am always looking to improve regradless what sport I Play. One of my best coaches back in the day told me to "enjoy the journey"." It is often more rewarding then the destination." I really do enjoy the process of learning something new that can be applied That can result in improvement.

[cheesehead]

To make it clear I apologize for suggesting the lateral knee pushing demo. I was passing along what was shown to me by a pmts instructor. At the time I asked why it wasn't in the pmts materials and I was told that I wasn't understanding the materials correctly and this knee driving would bring it all together for me.

[h.harb]

That PMTS instructor needs some reviewing or he or she is really out of touch. No where in PMTS material does it say knee drive!!!?? Let's get that completely clear. I suspect the instructor who told you that is not current and misunderstands the PMTS system. Or has been hanging around PSIA people too much and too long. I'm not kidding this can happen, it's easy to get sucked in and distracted.

[h.harb]

At the time I asked why it wasn't in the pmts materials and I was told that I wasn't understanding the materials correctly and this knee driving would bring it all together for me.

Well guess what, this is totally wrong, it will never bring it together. Fire your instructor and please report who it is to me, I'll do something about it.

[Basil j]

Started workong on some PMTS with my 6 year old this weekend. We spent 20 minutes tipping just in our boots and then I traced a big S in the snow and had him take tiny steps thru it with LTE tipping. He is a wedge turner so starting a turn with the inside ski was foreign to him. I got him to traverse across some gentle terrain and do some shuffle step turns and then som Phantom move to wedge & Phantom drags, and he started to piece things together. We are on vacation all next week and I will be doing an hour with him every afternoon after his ski school, following the sequence in green to Blue in the manual and it all makes perfect sense. Edge release, single foot balance & tipping are the foundations that have to be in place before moving to anything else.The instructors manual is perfect for what I was looking for as it breaks its down in a very logical sequence that I can do with the kids, building from one movement to the next.I get the pleasure of walking myself through the very same movements so it reinforces what I have been working on as well. Good Stuff HH!

[Ken]

There is a big difference between intentional movements and incidental movements. We intentionally tip at the ankle. The knee incidentally moves toward the hill. Big difference. Forcing the knee toward the hill or intentionally dropping the hip to create angles does not work as well. We make movements that incidentally cause rotation in the hip joints...that's the way the human body is built. We do not intentionally rotate the hip joints to steer the skis. Big difference. We do not intentionally extend our legs to raise the body except when it is necessary to jump over a hazard or to simply jump for the fun of it. We sometimes incidentally have the body raise when we flex our legs and the body crosses over the skis. Big difference.

[milesb]

3 cheers for the PMTS instructor's manual!

[Basil j]

3 cheers for the PMTS instructor's manual!

It really does lay out in in a nice clear easy to understand chronological order.

[Basil j]

Got a Chance to ski with JMdane the other day. It was nice to finally get on the hill with someone who knows and practices PMTS. He is a super nice guy. He was up at Cannon teaching the visiting Brits that come up every February and we got an hour at Lunch and another hour at the end of the day to do some free skiing. He did a quick assessment of my skiing, gave me some good pointers regarding tipping and keeping my inside ski on the snow instead of lifting it and making the movement more fluid.We did some pretty high speed Von Grunigan turns and he & I enjoyed some nice free skiing. I applied what he suggested and immediately saw an improvement in getting in the High "C'" earlier in the turn and keeping a narrow stance with my inside foot pulled back much more consistently . I got a chance to powder ski today and the nice thing about PMTS is that you can use the same movements in all conditions. I was skiing bumps, steeps and crud better today by simply applying what he suggested. Nice to only need one tool box. I hope to get out on the hill with him again soon. It was really great to meet someone from this board. I hope to get a chance to ski with him again this season.

[h.harb]

Yes the instructor manual, it is a wealth of great information, underutilized. Glad you found it an are enjoying it. It's another project on our list, new photos, larger and some minor updates, not much really needs changing.

[Max_501]

He did a quick assessment of my skiing, gave me some good pointers regarding tipping and keeping my inside ski on the snow instead of lifting it and making the movement more fluid.

What was the reasoning for that tip?

Note - like Harald I lift my inside ski often and in nearly all conditions.