Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby Max_501 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:02 pm

theorist wrote:On the older Dodge boots, there is also lateral tracking but, without the medial material deformation to compensate, edge angle is increased when the boot is pressured. In practice, this is principally an issue at initiation on steep, icy terrain, where the tracking causes the angle to increase a bit too abruptly.


The issue occurs later in the arc and only a very high level skier like HH skiing on steep ice would be able to notice it.
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby BillVT » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:17 pm

The deflection of the boots on the inside ski are not as much of an issue because you don't load the inside ski as much as the outside ski. Therefore the knee tracking isn't really an issue on the inside ski.

When we designed the first DODGE Boots, we made a lot of innovations but, quite frankly, we didn't fully understand the implication of the knee tracking with a boot as laterally stiff as the DODGE. It really wasn't an issue except with our World Cup racers. After lots and lots of discussions with them, with coaches and a lot of observations, we came to realize that some of the things the racers were asking for (a softer sole, softer cuffs, springs in the heel, etc.) weren't the issue, but that the knee tracking was. Interestingly, other companies were having similar issues with their super stiff plug race boots. After we had success making modifications to "mellow mod" our boots, other companies started setting up their race boots to modify their knee tracking as well.

The `12-13 DODGE Boots have a minor "mellow mod" inside that users tell us is 10-15% better than the original design. The `13-14 boot, with its revised geometry improves on the "mellow mod" another 20% over that.

Max, we found the difference from the `12-13 to the `13-14 boot to be noticeable both in turn initiation and through the middle of the turn. And definitely noticeable by skiers not as skilled as Harald.

Think that about exhausts what I can tell you without having you sign a confidentiality agreement!
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby h.harb » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:43 pm

I never felt that initiation was an issue, as my skis are light during initiation, because I retract my legs to change edges.
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby Max_501 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:45 pm

BillVT wrote:Max, we found the difference from the `12-13 to the `13-14 boot to be noticeable both in turn initiation and through the middle of the turn.


There shouldn't be much pressure on the boot tongue during turn initiation, certainly not enough to cause the boot to flex and move the knee to the outside, so they have to be feeling something else.
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby h.harb » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:59 pm

Pressuring the ski tip or front of the boot in racing, at initiation is less productive during the High C part of the arc. Ideally, you want to set yourself up to be forward and create angles, but not pressure. That is if you are a good racer. If you look at my blog studies, and photos, Hirscher in slalom, his out side ski often never touches the snow until the falline. Michael von Gruenigen ... the great GS Champion, who still owns the greatest number of World Cup GS wins record, used to do the same in GS.
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby h.harb » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:05 pm

MAx 501 wrote:
The issue occurs later in the arc and only a very high level skier like HH skiing on steep ice would be able to notice it.


That is the only part of the turn you might notice any chatter issues, most skiers will never encounter this problem with Dodge Boots. Bill is talking about a refinement to a boot that works in all situations, except possibly in "really steep, hard carved, arcs, on ice". Read my lips!!! Otherwise the boot holds on anything and does so better than any boot I've skied.
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby jclayton » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:37 am

As an intermediate skier , carving happily on most slopes and with a serviceable short turn ( still in need of much refinement ) I have ordered a pair of the boots on offer . Having skied a Head " all mountain "boot for nigh on 9 years , fitted by HH ( before that I changed boots every year or two ) I assume I would not be able to perceive a difference between the new and superceded boots for a long time , if ever .
If I do ever reach that happy stage there would , I am sure , be several interim modifications anyway .
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby jclayton » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:49 am

As a famous scientist said , great discoveries are usually punctuated by " that's funny " , rather than " Eureka "

I just made a connection ; inside edge at transition and into the fall line before the outside edge ( the old " Von Gruenigen turn " ) , and not pressuring the ski too early .

I have always found this pressure issue difficult to judge , often standing on it too early . This gives me another angle to work on . Funny how things can stare you in the face for years before you see them .
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby geoffda » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:27 am

Sounds like you are starting to recognize the boundary that exists at the Blue level of PMTS and move beyond it. Good for you. What it sounds like you are starting to discover is the difference between being tipped and tipping. To become an advanced PMTS skier, you have to be able to tip past the point where you run out of range of motion and learn how to combine tipping, flexion, and relaxation to continue tipping throughout the majority of the arc and into real angles. This requires solid balancing ability at the top of the arc.

jclayton wrote:I just made a connection ; inside edge at transition and into the fall line before the outside edge ( the old " Von Gruenigen turn " )

No. Whether you are sequential or more simultaneous in your edge change and when you decide to transfer balance (i.e. OFR, TFR, or WR) does not really factor into this. It may be that that a particular type of release is helpful to you when you are trying to figure this out, but you should be able to make the same arc with any release. Personally, I would not start with the WR when working on this. You need a large amount of release energy (i.e. a true Von Gruenigen turn) to make it work and it requires a higher level of balance.

jclayton wrote: , and not pressuring the ski too early .

I have always found this pressure issue difficult to judge , often standing on it too early .

YES! The issue is that once you stop giving into the pressure and stand on the ski, tipping stops (and therefore the turn radius stops decreasing). What you have to figure out how to do is to relax properly so that you can keep the tipping and flexing going much deeper into the turn. Try to defer standing on the ski until late in the arc.
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby HighAngles » Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:17 pm

geoffda wrote:The issue is that once you stop giving into the pressure and stand on the ski, tipping stops (and therefore the turn radius stops decreasing). What you have to figure out how to do is to relax properly so that you can keep the tipping and flexing going much deeper into the turn. Try to defer standing on the ski until late in the arc.

So stated another way, pressure should develop progressively; light to none at transition while building toward a peak at the apex. Should pressure continue building after the apex? I take Max's guidance regarding "giving in too early" to imply that pressure can (and should) increase past the apex, only to be released at the transition.

So as we work on this I'm thinking that the focus would be on trying to resist slamming on the pressure early in the arc. To, in fact, resist the developing pressure while increasing tipping.

< sorry for the massive thread drift - I might be piling on, but I didn't start this :wink: >
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby jbotti » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:24 pm

Perhaps the better way to say it and to think about is that at the start of the arc, the G forces are limited. At the apex of the arc the G forces are at there highest. Tipping should mimic/ be in aignment with the forces that the arc is givng back. To tighten the arc at the apex requires massive tipping because of the forces that are inherent at that place in the arc.

Should pressure continue building after the apex?

If you look at the power releasing drill which is designed to have us flex the stance leg past the apex we are actually lessening the pressure and thus reducing the g forces to allow us to tip further.
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby Max_501 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:53 pm

Uh oh, jbotti just jumped to a more advanced technique of tightening the arc. Let's put that on the back burner for a moment and consider the apex of a high energy expert carved turn.

At the apex the outside leg is long and strong, the inside leg is flexed up into the chest, the inside foot is tipping to the LTE like crazy, the inside boot buckles are headed towards the snow, and the boots are pointed directly down the fall line. If you are racing then for the majority of turns you don't want to hold the turn past this point if you can help it because speed is lost as the tip is pulled across and up the slope. But most of us are not racers and we want to keep our speed in check while carving so our goal is tightening the arc and finishing the turn as much as possible without killing momentum.

What would you feel if you held the arc until the point that the boot was perpendicular to the fall line?
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby jbotti » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:59 pm

jbotti wrote:Perhaps the better way to say it and to think about is that at the start of the arc, the G forces are limited. At the apex of the arc the G forces are at there highest. Tipping should mimic/ be in aignment with the forces that the arc is givng back. To tighten the arc at the apex requires massive tipping because of the forces that are inherent at that place in the arc.

Should pressure continue building after the apex?

If you look at the power releasing drill which is designed to have us flex the stance leg past the apex we are actually lessening the pressure and thus reducing the g forces to allow us to tip further.


As well something I said is incorrect. It really is pressure that mimcs the G forces in the arc. Early and aggressive tipping is a good thing. You can't tip your way out of the high C (too much tipping will not push the tails out) but too much pressure too early in the turn can and will push the tails out of the carve.

Sorry I had to clarify.
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby HighAngles » Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:17 pm

Max_501 wrote:What would you feel if you held the arc until the point that the boot was perpendicular to the fall line?

Increasing pressure, correct?
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Re: Best deal on a carbon boots in history.

Postby Max_501 » Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:23 pm

HighAngles wrote:Increasing pressure, correct?


Like a big arse linebacker is trying to rip the ski out from under you! :D
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