Need Help to Introduce PMTS to Difficult Student

[dtrick924]

As a former "difficult student", I'd like to offer my two cents. You offered to help her and she refused your help. You need to let it go unless she comes to you looking for help and advice. Trying to teach someone who is not interested in learning a new technique is just going to leave you both frustrated.

If she is willing to try PMTS you need to make sure that you do any exercises on an extremely gentle slope, especially since she is already afraid of falling. The first time I ever tried to learn PMTS it was on rollerblades. I got on a hill that was too steep for me, lost my balance and took a hard fall. That fall was so demotivating for me that it was years before I was willing to try again with PMTS.

I had to be open to learning before I could progress. No amount of watching other talented skiers could convince me otherwise because in my head I had gone as far as I could after years of TTS lessons that went nowhere. I had decided that I just wasn't very athletic/a very good skier and I had gotten as good as I was ever going to get.

Harald mentioned that there might be something going on with her alignment. I haven't been aligned (will be having it done at my 1st green/blue camp this Feb) but I had ankle and shin pain with my boots. Again, I figured that ski boots were just uncomfortable. When first learning PMTS I couldn't figure out how to pull my feet back.

I finally went to a boot fitter to see if they could do anything to make my boots more comfortable. It turned out that my boots were way too big in the foot. I ended up getting new boots with a smaller foot volume and a larger and lower cuff to accommodate my calf. With my new boots I could finally pull my feet back and though I am still very much a beginning PMTS student (2 seasons of 10-15 days plus rollerblading in the off season) with a long way to go I am finally making progress after years of being a terminal intermediate.

[arothafel]

Sometimes, even when someone decides, "O.K. I'll try PMTS," he or she may attempt to cherry-pick the movements instead of approaching it holistically.

That never ends well, either -- unless those one or two moves motivate the person to fully embrace PMTS.

For many advanced skiers, it means abandoning concepts and techniques they've spent years to develop.

It's like learning about the Tooth Fairy!

They prefer to "believe" that their multiple-techniques "tool box" is serving them well.

I've tried to introduce PMTS to many people. But, after a while, if they're not "getting it" I just stop talking about it.

[Skiasaurus Rex]

Do you really think that, Art?

You don't think getting a low intermediate systemic stemmer/ skidder to to initiate a turn by tipping LTE or to flex to release their old edges (instead of extending or stemming or both) and then transfer and tip to the new ones has instantaneous benefits that they can keep and use forever?

I agree without embracing the whole system they'll never progress to the levels of PMTS Blue Certs and such, but for just about anybody, especially terminal intermediates and below, just getting a primer on a few of the the essentials, especially tipping and flexing to release can alter their whole way of skiing and for the discernibly better.

That's why I love Harald's Road to carving video-it's a hard drill, but instantly valuable. If someone just worked for a few months on the tipping release in that video, and a little flexing to release and transfer in between turns, and nothing else, they would ski way, way better than they ever imagined. With more control and joy.

Sure, without embracing the whole system they won't lay down hip on the snow trenches or rip moguls and steeps and crud like those who have really gone whole-hog with PMTS, but they can and will ski way better...forever. There is palpable value even if they just get one PMTS concept and it replaces one dead-end TTS maneuver.

[geoffda]

I think you are both right. For almost any skier, simply learning how to lift and tip can be the breakthrough of a lifetime. For intermediates and below, they suddenly get a level of control that they have never experienced before. For somebody who views skiing as a pastime (as opposed to sport), they may decide that they are perfectly happy lifting and tipping their way down groomed runs for the rest of their career and never see the reason to investigate PMTS further. That is great. They've monumentally improved their skiing and they can keep doing what they want to do. Rex has it right here.

Skiers who see themselves as advanced or expert are the problem. They most likely are spending the majority of their time in difficult terrain and snow conditions. They are likely doing this with limited success (beyond survival) and a great deal of physical effort, but by God, they are skiing double-black diamonds. As such, they are very invested in their perceived status as good skiers. Those skiers are the ones that will need to make a choice. The only way they will ever be able to ski the kind of terrain and conditions they are interested in well is to fully buy in to the program. That means giving up what they are doing, starting over, and spending the vast majority of their time on green and blue terrain. They would have to be the kind of skiers that see skiing as a sport to master, rather than just something to do in the winter. Most skiers aren't going to want to make that choice. As Art says, they will try to use PMTS like they use ski-tips. While they might be helped by it to a degree, they will never ski difficult terrain with elegance, efficiency, and effective movements.

And then there are some skiers who truly are advanced and can ski almost all conditions reasonably well and see no desire to change what they are doing. They won't ever be beautiful skiers, but they are functional. Those skiers may also have a look at PMTS and be unwilling to make the investment. They may come to a camp or read the books and get something helpful to take away. It won't fundamentally change their skiing, but since they are already happy with what they are doing, that is fine as well. The only sad thing for those skiers is that most of them will never realize what they are missing. Many of those skiers could be truly exceptional if they committed to relearning how to ski using PMTS. They'll also never get to experience the exponential increase in the fun-factor that you get when the right movements start to work together to bend the ski. They don't realize that their present abilities limit them to only the tip of the iceberg with respect to what is possible...Too bad.

[Max_501]

You don't think getting a low intermediate systemic stemmer/ skidder to to initiate a turn by tipping LTE or to flex to release their old edges (instead of extending or stemming or both) and then transfer and tip to the new ones has instantaneous benefits that they can keep and use forever?

Learning the phantom move can have awesome results but few low intermediate skiers can jump directly to the phantom. And that is what Art is getting at. You have to build the foundation first. The phantom is a deceptively simply looking compound movement based on smaller PMTS fundamentals.

That's why I love Harald's Road to carving video-it's a hard drill, but instantly valuable. If someone just worked for a few months on the tipping release in that video, and a little flexing to release and transfer in between turns, and nothing else, they would ski way, way better than they ever imagined. With more control and joy.

What HH is demonstrating is one of the more advanced drills in PMTS that is built on a strong PMTS foundation. It is not the place for a new student to start because they will almost certainly use rotation to get the skis around.

[h.harb]

I'll confirm what Max501 is pointing out. THe PM and the Direct to Parallel video require some build up with good PMTS instruction. If you get a TTS skier into either of these without preparation; they will be very frustrated. Reversing the poor skiing movements of TTS, is not a 5 minute process.

That said I've seen athletic people use the Phantom Move and have immediate success, that's not the norm, but it sure is fun to watch when it happens. You still have to learn how to balance on a little toe edge for a second if you want to make a good PM. It's called the wedge blocker or the Super Phantom. And a push off, which almost all TTS use will never get you to a PM. So you can see some preparation is necessary.

As JBotti said in an earlier post, you can't just cherry pick PMTS, and get skiing success, you have to really devote yourself.

[richk]

How about posing the question differently: What movement pattern could be quickly acquired by a solid intermediate skier that would give some hint of the potential of making the commitment to PMTS?

My suggestion is lift and tip for the lower C part of the turn. After demonstrating the movements in a stationary position, it can be tried, with little cause for apprehension, in a traverse going back up the hill. After that is successful, then whatever release they can muster is used, but then lift, pull the foot in, tip, and pullback are used to complete the turn. If the student can do just a bit of that, he will have way more shape to that part of the turn, with grip, than previously and can sense that different movements can be powerful.

If that appetizer is appealing, then it is back to basics to build to the phantom move.

[Max_501]

...but then lift, pull the foot in, tip, and pullback are used to complete the turn. If the student can do just a bit of that...

That little bit is a complex movement for most low intermediate skiers and is probably too big of a jump from TTS skiing.

[h.harb]

You are asking the right questions. But on the skill acquisition side, you have to ask yourself first, the PM can be learned immediately if the student can do "what" ?????


Answer:
Balance on the little toe edge, without it flattening, when he lifts the old stance foot. If the student can't do that, there is no PM..

[h.harb]

Next question, "how do I build this so that the student is successful. This is where terrain and tactics relative to the falline come into play.

[arothafel]

I totally agree with you, Rex, if you suggest that once someone experiences an "Ah Ha!" moment via tipping, CA/CB, etc... and it leads them to PMTS to learn the entire system... then, that is a "good thing."

But, I am devout in the belief that PMTS is a complete, comprehensive system. Not something from which to borrow an element here and there.

Every time someone tries to incorporate just one or two PMTS elements into an existing faulty system, it seems to break down at some point. I see skiers who've learned to TIP, but continue with too wide a stance and no CA/CB. To increase their tipping without the other elements, they often lean into the hill, put too much on the free foot and just plain crash.

Sure, it could be fixed -- but the skier never really learns the logic of the system if it's learned piecemeal. And, from what I've witnessed, the skier will get frustrated and return to their old "tried and true" ways of doing things.

http://vimeo.com/77177549#

Sorry... I couldn't resist!

[h.harb]

There are too many Dudes in this video.

[milesb]

...My suggestion is lift and tip for the lower C part of the turn. After demonstrating the movements in a stationary position, it can be tried, with little cause for apprehension, in a traverse going back up the hill. After that is successful, then whatever release they can muster is used, but then lift, pull the foot in, tip, and pullback are used to complete the turn. If the student can do just a bit of that, he will have way more shape to that part of the turn, with grip, than previously and can sense that different movements can be powerful...

That is similiar to what I give anyone who asks. I leave out the pullback, as Max501 says, it's too much at one time, and really isn't that critical on an easy slope. Just lift the tail of the inside ski and tip it in the bottom of the turn. It doesn't take much of my time or theirs, is something that I can demonstrate well even after several beers, is something that everyone I've shown it to can do, and is something that has an immediate effect. I refer them to Harald's written and video material if they want more.

[dan.boisvert]

I don't know how you phrase things when you talk with her, but I think talking about PMTS as "the correct approach" and "the right way" turns a lot of people off. I try to use phrases like "more efficiently", "letting the skis do more of the work", and "the best way I've seen".

I think getting through in situations like this one is really more a social dilemma than a skiing one. If she was motivated to improve, what would make her want to learn from you, as opposed to everybody else who tries to tell her how to ski?

Are you way better at skiing than everybody else she knows?
Do you ski with a style she really likes? More graceful/elegant/whatever?
Are you way more approachable?
Are you really, really, ridiculously good-looking?
Does she really enjoy talking with you in general, and would spend a day with you just for the conversation?
Do you make her feel comfortable and safe?

There are probably more, but those are the ones that came immediately to mind from my experience with teaching things I'm better at than skiing. You could already be answering "Hell, yeah!" to each of those for all I know; I just thought I'd offer another angle on it.

[jbotti]

ACBAES
Anyone (who wants it, is willing to listen, takes instruction, works their ass off, drops their preconceived ideas about skiing, admits their current skiing sucks and/or needs improvement, and will get the help and instruction necessary to progress) Can Be an Expert Skier.

Not sure where she fits in.

When I was struggling a few weeks ago with something on guitar I sent an email to my teacher and asked him if experiencing how bad I suck is part of the process. His response was: "Yes a very necessary part of the process. Without experiencing that, you can't get better and many never do."

I would say the one unifying characteristic of all PMTS skiers is that we have all felt deeply that we suck, and often.

Improvement isn't for everyone only for those that see their level objectively and want more.

PMTS is not for every one either. Just look at the thousands of skiers that have come across it and rejected it for a laundry list of reasons.