If skiing was this instantly available.

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Re: If skiing was this instantly available.

Postby h.harb » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:52 pm

Knee drive muscles, in a skiing context, are actually the adductors on the inside of the femur. If this is the first movement to put skis on edge, it eliminates the process of creating balance and tipping; starting at the bottom of the kinetic chain with your feet and ankles. If you are contracting the ITB you are not tipping with foot internal or external tipping/rotation. It may also indicate that your glute muscles are weak or not firing properly.
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Re: If skiing was this instantly available.

Postby Kiwi » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:00 pm

Thanks Harald
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Re: If skiing was this instantly available.

Postby h.harb » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:06 pm

For all, please remember there are dozens of posts on this forum about kinetic chain, foot tipping and femur internal rotation; what it does, how it works etc. For further information about this and any topic, the Search feature, above and to the right! it really works!

Here is just one example I fished up from 2010:
Meput:
I have been working on my fore/aft balance this year. My focus has been dorsiflexion of foot/ankle to facilitate forward movement of my CM (initiating the kinetic chain at the foot). Dorsiflexion draws the lower leg forward into the boot tongue, bringing the knee and femur, and pelvis/body forward.



I've heard this approach before, it pops up every few years and I have never found that using doriflexion in the boot, to be an effective way to think about centering. I have heard it used in the PSIA jargon. I cringe every time I hear it and I never see results when it's used. Every top skier I've talked to tells me they never use that idea, including Diana and various other PMTS instructors and racers.

To begin with, it doesn't activate much in the kinetic chain, as that movement has little or no leverage over the top of the boot or to the hip. It doesn't help in pull back efforts for the kinetic chain to operate, because you have to be close to balance or in balance regardless of method. Even lateral ankle movements are worthless for kinetic chain, edge engagement if you are standing or leaning on your inside ski. Therefore being caught in the back seat, and if you are out of balance in a rearward position, the idea that dorisflexion has enough leverage or movement capability to bring your hips back to center is far fetched at best.
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Re: If skiing was this instantly available.

Postby Max_501 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:24 pm

For anyone that is seriously interested in learning about the kinetic chain: PMTS Instructor Manual
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Re: If skiing was this instantly available.

Postby Kiwi » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:27 pm

From my perspective I was trying to discuss how bad movements block the effective use of the kinetic chain and that the "essentials" enhance its use, if that makes sense. Basically, I thought if the knee is being wrongly used, as suggested in the video, that this could lead to sore ITB as a result of some type of compensatory activity. The general principle I was advancing was that very sore or fatigued muscles is a sign something is wrong with how you are skiing and furthermore that this can be traced to the mechanics being used. Specifically,I was suggesting that knee driving risks the knee's safety, because the joint isn't stacked, and that it restricts proper counter acting movements making skiing both physically difficult and ineffective. I attributed this in part to the knee driving movements blocking, in the sense that a muscle being used wrongly can not be recruited to act in another way, thus stopping the proper use of the kinetic chain.

I accept I was wrong about the rotators for the knee. I thought the ITB would be involved in the knee driving movement.

That said I do recognize the need for precision when discussing movements.

I can also recommend the bio section in the PMTS DIRECT PARALLEL Instructors Manual - basic biomechanics of skiing, pg 21 just had another read myself.
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Re: If skiing was this instantly available.

Postby HeluvaSkier » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:10 pm

Max_501 wrote:For anyone that is seriously interested in learning about the kinetic chain: PMTS Instructor Manual


Yep. Best single publication aimed at training coaches to teach beginner though expert levels that exists. Not only tells you what to do, how to do it, but also WHY to do it.
Discipline is the refining fire by which talent becomes ability.

www.youtube.com/c/heluvaskier
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Re: If skiing was this instantly available.

Postby HighAngles » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:32 am

OK, I'm convinced - I'm going to crack the cover on the instructor's manual today. I haven't read it in many seasons (I think I bought it about 4 or 5 seasons ago) and not only do I want to re-read it for my own needs, but I think I need a refresher so that I can better help my kids when their skis hit the snow for the new season.

P.S. - I wish HSS would consider the idea of having a kids camp. I would put all 3 of my kids in that every season.
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Re: If skiing was this instantly available.

Postby h.harb » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:47 am

We have been approached often about kids and camps or instruction. It's not that we don't want to teach kids, we have done it before and even had camps. With kids, before they are of driving age, it's the logistics involved.You need the parents there or you have to take the kids home with you. If the parents can be there, it's usually during vacation when the slopes and ski resorts are packed.
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Re: If skiing was this instantly available.

Postby h.harb » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:57 am

Some of you know I've been working with a group of kids from California for about 6 years now. So here is how this was done. I started by going to California to ski with them in their own program, when they were 6. One parent dropped them off every day and the parent fed and dressed them, even at lunch. After that, when they came to Colorado every November, same thing, the parents were with them at the ski areas everyday. Now we also do summer camps with them at Hood, most of them are 11 and 12 years old, at this point. They are excellent skiers and racers.. But that's a real commitment. I ski with them on average about 10 days a season. To get this done you need about 7 or 8 like minded families and parents who want to organize such a program, and the age of the kids need to be fairly close.
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Re: If skiing was this instantly available.

Postby skijim13 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:34 am

Here is a link to my first ski video I purchased in the 1980's, with Jean Claude Killy, notice the narrow stance then as it should be today. However, somehow the PSIA came up with the wide stance concept. www.sybervision.com/Skiing/
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