Marcel Hircher & then everyone else (off topic)

[Basil j]

Since I got turned onto this board I have begun to watch a lot of ski racing video, mostly available from Universal sports on You tube. In almost every race that Hircher races in, the commentators seem to always comment about the "different style" that Hircher brings to the snow. They call it fast feet, smooth and balanced. He looks head shoulders above the rest of the pack except for maybe Ivica Kostelic who is also well balanced but a tad different in style. I am trying to become a student of technique to help my skiing/racing , and to also look for things to bring to my kids to make them better skiers. Hircher always seems to have constant subtle positive differences that I see on every run in contrast to the other racers:
1. He appears to lead with his inside ski, yet stay well balanced on his outside ski most every turn.
2. He counter rotates, however subtly on every GS turn and Slalom turn allowing him to stay over his edges better and recover during turns much less dramatically and with less effort than other racers making the same adjustments.
3. His hips stay in line with his feet, where other racers, especially in steep slalom sit down much more, except for Kostelic who also skis very upright.
4. He gets on his turns so much earlier than most other skiers, and this appears to allow him to regulate ski pressure much better during his turns than starting to edge later.

In contrast I watched some video of US skiers and female WC racers and except for a few, I find the typical stance as being a little wide, I see a lot of leaning instead of Counter balance or rotation and lots of 2 footed edging. It's almost like Hircher is skiing with a different mechanical approach than everyone else. On some runs he looks like he is roller blading down the course. He is extremely fluid, smooth and graceful
Kostelic shares many of the same traits as Hircher, but he appears more blocked with less Counter rotation.
I don't know if I am even close to my analysis, but as the season come close I am trying to train my eye to what "good" looks like and how it ties into PMTS. I want to get right out of the gate from day one on the snow working on appropriate drills and objectives. I'd love to share thoughts on the state of world cup skiers and discuss different styles and mechanics we mere mortals can incorporate into our skiing/racing.

[Basil j]

Just found this video. I apologize if I am rehashing old stuff here. It's all new to me. Harald highlights some good points on this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz8J_06_HTs

[Max_501]

I don't know if I am even close to my analysis, but as the season come close I am trying to train my eye to what "good" looks like and how it ties into PMTS. I want to get right out of the gate from day one on the snow working on appropriate drills and objectives. I'd love to share thoughts on the state of world cup skiers and discuss different styles and mechanics we mere mortals can incorporate into our skiing/racing.

Start with ACBAES Book 1. After you have it mastered move to ACBAES Book 2 and work through each chapter. Don't progress to the next chapter until you can pass that chapter's test. You will learn each Essential needed to create a BPST which is also a prerequisite for making carved turns. Note that the carving chapter of Book 2 is the first chapter of the GRADUATE course. PMTS carving is an advanced skill that requires all of the Essentials. And you can mix drills from Essentials into your development program.

[Basil j]

Thanks max, BTW like the new Avatar photo. I purchased ACBES2 because the website said it was for intermediate to advanced skiers. After reading through the book and watching the video several times, my thought was to start the season working on and mastering 1 & 2 footed releases, javelin turns, inside foot tipping , closing up my stance up and basically mastering all the exercises presented in the dvd, in the order they are presented. Are you saying that I should not do that, but instead purchase ACBES1 and start from scratch? I am already a decent skier that logs in 40 days a season, and I felt that book 2 would be an appropriate place to start, fro my level, and if I was struggling with anything in DVD 2, perhaps purchase the instructor manual and utilize that instead of book 1, so I can perhaps relay the info to my kids in a better fashion. You have been there and done that, so I value your opinion. I don't want to buy book 1 , if a lot of the same info is in book 2. is the instructor manual a goo reference? thanks in advance.

[Max_501]

The instructors manual is a great reference if you are serious about coaching others and could also be used in place of Book 1, although you give up the alignment chapter in Book 1. But yes, IMO start at Book 1 unless you are already very good with the phantom move (which means you should be able to pass the performance check on page 28 of Book 2).

[meput]

Basil j,

I am more of a lurker than a poster, so take my advice in that context.

Take Max's advice and start with ACBES 1. Most skiers that have "experience" come with traditional technique baggage when they find PMTS. They are usually discouraged with traditional technique and are looking for something better. Unfortunately, trying to purge tts and adapt PMTS is very difficult when you are working from the books and DVD's without feedback. What Max has suggested is to take the time and effort to literally start from the beginning with PMTS with ACBES 1. A lot of skiers that start with ACBES 2 have bad habits from their tts background. They make mistakes that slow their advancement. Start with ACBES 1. Tear your skiing down to the essentials, learn them properly, then move to the next chapter. Don't assume anything. If your goal is to ski with the "different style" that Hirscher brings to the snow, PMTS will get you there. Unfortunately there are no shortcuts.

[Basil j]

I am very familiar and comfortable doing javelin turns. I have been to a number of masters camps over the years and have been doing javelin turns as a drill since the straight ski days. I will purchase book 1 and start from the beginning. I don't want to skip anything that may cause issues , slow my learning curve or mix up Traditional with PMTS technique.
I will have my wife film me at the start of the season on some groomers, some steeps, and bumps and then begin applying PMTS and see how it impacts my skiing.
Good advice. leave the ego at home and start from the beginning.

[Basil j]

BTW are there better skis than others to work on PMTS technique.
I currently own:
Dynastar speed course in a 176cm
Fichser Motive 80 in a 182cm
Fischer progressor 800 in a 175
All 3 skis are good hard snow skis with the motive 80 having the widest waist and tip rocker. I plan on using the progressor 800 is an my PMTS training ski.
The speed course does better with a little speed so it may not be the best for learning new moves. My brother just picked up a pair of TT80's from level nine to work on his PMTS along with me this winter and I assume they will be good as well.

[Max_501]

I am very familiar and comfortable doing javelin turns.

Good chance that the javelin you do is not the PMTS javelin.

The 800 should be a decent option for learning, depending on your size and skill level.

[Basil j]

I am very familiar and comfortable doing javelin turns.

Good chance that the javelin you do is not the PMTS javelin.

The 800 should be a decent option for learning, depending on your size and skill level.

Chances are, you may be right. the javelin turns I was taught had the ski coming across much more than the PMTS style. I am 200lbs and have been rated a strong level 7-8 skier by several instructors at different mountains, so I feel that I am fairly solid in PSIA fundamental basics, but want much more out of my skiing which is what has brought me to PMTS. I love all 3 of my skis for different reasons, but have always had a bias towards Fischers for their hard snow grip.

[Max_501]

I love all 3 of my skis for different reasons, but have always had a bias towards Fischers for their hard snow grip.

If you get a chance demo Head and Elan carving skis. Both have incredible hard snow grip with a great flex pattern.

And see this thread for racer specific info:

http://pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php ... 29&p=31381

[Basil j]

I may pick up a pair of TT80's. Level nine has them for a ridiculous price right now and they have a nice tight turn radius. Is this a good ski to learn PMTS fundamnetals on? Are they pretty versatile? For the price, they may be a good go to ski for learning this stuff.

[CO_Steve]

I have found my Motive 80s respond very well to PMTS techniques in softer snow. Not so much on hardpack days.

Those cheap TT80s on L9 are the 176, which skis quite a bit differently than the 170, the preferred size IMO.

[geoffda]

I really like the Icon 80 as a daily driver. It is very versatile and functions well as an all-mountain ski. My only complaint is that because it is wood-core with no metal, it tends to break down faster than other skis. I skied my first pair of Icon 80's through two seasons and it was really pretty done partway through the second season. I'm heading into the second season on my second pair (Icon 800), so we'll see. But if you can get a good deal, it is a great ski.

x2 on the Motive 80. I've only skied it a few times when Co_Steve has had it out, but it is a very nice ski. It skis quite a bit like the Head iSuperShape. The tip really pulls the ski into the turn.

[Basil j]

I think my weight will match up okay on a 176cm tt 80. I'm am between 196lb -200lbs and find that every 170cm I have skied keft me feeling like I wanted something longer. I can always move the binding forward a bit if it feels sluggish. My brother skis a 176cm and absolutely loves it. we are roughly the same height and weight. His prior go to ski was the peak 176cm and the TT 80 is now his go to ski. He skis primarily groomers and bumps and thinks wide skis are only for powder and the woods. My Motive 80 is my "wide ski"
I have always liked Ficher skis. I actually like my speed course the best of all the skis I ski own, but it needs a little speed to come alive and I think for PMTS training it may not be ideal. I am sure I will love it even more once I start getting proficient with the PMTS system.
I think I may pull the rigger on the TT80's. If I don't like them, I am not risking muck $$.
I was also looking at a pair of progressor 900's but don't know how much more I will get out of them than the TT 80's for the additional $300.00 for what I will be using them for.