Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby geoffda » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:36 am

skijim13 wrote: I told them that I make turns now without adding rotary movement, they all told me it is impossible to turn with turning your legs. I actually showed a long time friend in the ski school your video and he said every turn made was using rotary, he could not see the truth.


If your skis turn, your feet and legs must follow. There is rotation that happens in PMTS turns, it is just that it is a side-effect of movements that start with the feet (inversion/eversion). Plus, we use counter-acting movements to limit effects of rotation. That is the critical difference that many instructors either don't understand or don't recognize. They just see rotation and think we're all doing the same thing. But we are not.

The canonical TTS steering drill is to stand in your boots and scrub an hourglass pattern in the snow, which is accomplished by twisting your feet. However, to actually do that, you have to recruit gross muscles in the knees and hips which are more difficult to control. In addition, because these movements are so imprecise, they are often disruptive to balance (and this drill actually encourages weighting of both feet). Finally, twisting movements do not produce edging directly; rather you get it as a side-effect and it happens late, after the ski is already skidding. This makes it far more difficult to accurately control the ski.

PMTS tipping is exactly the opposite. We use inversion and eversion of the foot which produces edging directly and rotation as a side-effect. The muscles of the feet and the ankle allow us to use fine motor skills to make these movements, so we can do them with considerable precision. Additionally, by starting with fine movements of the feet, we are able to build balance into our skiing (particularly one-footed balance and weighting) and we get the benefits of the kinectic chain, whereby other movements like counter-balancing begin to happen automatically. Finally, the movements of inversion/eversion produce edging immediately. If they are done properly, ski grip and control may be accessed immediately. With PMTS movements, the *only* time we are not accessing ski performance is the brief period of time where the ski is flat, or neutral, during transition.

When talking about PMTS with TTS folks, it may be more useful to discuss differences in movement and their consequences, rather than getting too hung up on the rotation debate. I think that there is a common misunderstanding among TTS instructors that somehow PMTS claims that it is possible to ski without rotation. That is not the case. We simply say, "if you want to become a better skier, stop twisting your feet!"
Last edited by geoffda on Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby emakarios » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:07 am

well said Geoff.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby skijim13 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:14 am

Quote from Socrates "There is only one good knowledge,and,only one evil ignorance"
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:18 am

And don't fail to recognize that we develop new skiers right off the bus, not by teaching leg steering or wedge movements, but by tipping and stepping. Not by twisting or pushing, but by tipping and balancing. Totally different approaches right from the beginning. TTS uses leg and foot twisting or steering movements, we discourage and eliminate them. We use flexing and tipping, which allows the legs to follow the ski tipping with passive following.. PMTS is a much more delicate, refined and precise way to ski. No gross movements. No where in the PMTS instructor manual does it say, steer, rotor or twist your feet and legs, at any level of skiing. We never use the famous PSIA "catch all" pivot slip exercise in PMTS, it's useless.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby Erik » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:10 am

skijim13 wrote:I actually showed a long time friend in the ski school your video and he said every turn made was using rotary, he could not see the truth. I now only talk about PMTS with my wife, I am lucky to have a great partner to work with..


skijim-

With PMTS as a framework for understandiing skiing performance, your MA skills will develop very quickly, and you should accept that you will be able to see things that your fellow ski school instructors just can't see. No matter how interesting it is to you, they just won't understand. You can have some fun with this sitting on the chairlift with your fellow instructors and asking them what is driving the skiing performance of various skiers coming down the slope. You will find probably find that for evey item they mention, you are probably seeing many more real cause-and-effect performance issues. And that most of what they say will be wrong, because they are leaping to a diagnosis without seeing and understanding the symptoms. It would just be pointless to start an argument with them about the best way ahead for that skier, and you may need to be reserved about everything you are seeing, because they don't have the framework to understand it. The PMTS MA skills will enable you to become a better intsructor, because they will give you a much better idea where to start with any skier.

Those who see you all the time on the hill might see you working on drills and may not notice day-by-day how much PMTS is improving your free skiing. It might be useful to save off video of your pre-PMTS skiing, and then at the end of the season, show the before/after to some of your counterparts. Don't tell them which is which, and ask them which one looks like better skiing.

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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby skijim13 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:25 am

Erik I agree with what you have said, I just purchased the PMTS instructor book can't wait to read it and use the concepts in the book. I keep both sets of cards from Expert I and II in my ski jacket. These have a lot more value than the useless PSIA effective and ineffective movement cards.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby geoffda » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:08 am

Erik wrote:With PMTS as a framework for understandiing skiing performance, your MA skills will develop very quickly, and you should accept that you will be able to see things that your fellow ski school instructors just can't see.


PMTS skiers can see...

DEAD SKIERS! :mrgreen:
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:47 pm

Well said and how true this is!!!!


With PMTS as a framework for understandiing skiing performance, your MA skills will develop very quickly, and you should accept that you will be able to see things that your fellow ski school instructors just can't see. No matter how interesting it is to you, they just won't understand. You can have some fun with this sitting on the chairlift with your fellow instructors and asking them what is driving the skiing performance of various skiers coming down the slope. You will find probably find that for evey item they mention, you are probably seeing many more real cause-and-effect performance issues. And that most of what they say will be wrong, because they are leaping to a diagnosis without seeing and understanding the symptoms. It would just be pointless to start an argument with them about the best way ahead for that skier, and you may need to be reserved about everything you are seeing, because they don't have the framework to understand it. The PMTS MA skills will enable you to become a better intsructor, because they will give you a much better idea where to start with any skier.


How true this is, it's like in the Movie, The Matrix. Unless you take the Red Pill (the blue one keeps you where you are) you will never see the real world. Many instructors would rather take the Blue one and stay where they are.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:57 pm

How about, "PMTS skiers, see the futility of TTS!" And the opposite must be very disconcerting to those who take the Blue Pill, (stay with what they know) they think you have lost your mind, using a different system and learning PMTS. After you learn how to use and teach PMTS, it's rather daunting to realize the rest of the ski world doesn't know what you know. Watching the futility of TTS and how instructors teach it, after you learn PMTS, you can't believe you were caught up in trying to ski with TTS. And the industry keeps asking itself why people don't come back for lessons?
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby Smackboy1 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:46 pm

h.harb wrote:Many instructors would rather take the Blue one and stay where they are.


I think Upton Sinclair may have said it best: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
Skiing: falling down the mountain with style.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:04 pm

yup, that's true, but when your pay keeps shrinking year after year something has to give.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby Ihamilton » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:49 pm

How about this?
PMTS coaches know that they are coaching the best method in the world. They know this because they see their clients improve their skiing every time the clients learn a new (to them) PMTS movement. Also they watch the very best skiers in the world, recognize their movements and teach the same movements. As a result of this "knowing" PMTS coaches can accept both valid and invalid criticism. They will listen to valid criticism with the purpose of revising their teaching to make the method even better. A PMTS coach know that skiing will always continue to evolve, so good valid criticism is not avoided it is welcomed. Invalid criticism doesn't upset a PMTS coach because they know that the speaker isn't in a position or doesn't have the knowledge to understand skiing. New improved technique is quickly accepted and absorbed because it is an addition to a method they already understand and such techniques are small steps and easy to learn.
A TTS coach believes (I hope) that they are teaching the best method available. Beliefs are subject to change at any time whereas knowing is unshakeable. A TTS coach only believes they have the best system because they have such inconsistent results in their clients they aren't sure what works and what doesn't. They often rationalize this by saying to themselves "they can't get it" or "conditions weren't conducive to learning" or" she got but he didn't so he can't learn" or a whole host of reasons. They never say to themselves " the student didn't get it so what did I do wrong or is my method wrong" because that would change their belief and threaten their identity. They won't accept even valid criticism because that threatens their beliefs and then their identity is threatened. So they become defensive if someone suggests a better method or worse still is someone using a different method and obtaining good results. So they go into denial and delude themselves into thinking that there can't be a better way. They will go out of their way to stop the different method from being taught or some one speaking out against TTS to insulate themselves from a world of teaching they can't figure out. Technique seldom changes and if it does it is years behind because every coach is too engrained in their own world to accept change.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:37 pm

There are some key comparisons to take note of here.

-A PMTS coach can watch a skier and see the origin of their skiing frustration or if the skiers is not frustrated yet, the PMTS coach can see where the limitations are..
- A TTS coach watches a skier and immediately says, there is not enough leg steering or rotary movements, because the skier is skidding losing control, can't make a round turn and doesn't have speed control.
Added later: Oh Yes, I forgot, this is an after thought, the catch all TTS teaching miracle, your stance isn't wide enough!!!!

-The PMTS coach watches a TTS instructor and sees in his skiing there is extension, upper body rotation, pivoting of the skis and an edge set.
-A TTS instructor watches a PMTS coach or skier (both make the same movements) and says, you ski too much like a racer, and you edge too much.

They don't see that the skier is in control, has little excessive movement, is efficient and makes round arcs in control.

A PMTS coach identifies the movements that are holding the skier back, in most cases the skier is extending and pushing off at the end of an arc, leaning and twisting the upper body to start the arc, and dropping the hips too early in the arc, therefore getting in the back seat.
The PMTS instructor builds a plan to help reduce extension and increase flexing with tipping. Then teaches to reduce upper body leaning and rotation.

The TTS instructor continues to teach all of the above, because it is part of the TTS progression and maneuvers : like extension, that the PMTS coach is trying to eliminate, like leg steering to pivoting and a push to extension out of the arc.

A PMTS coach will give the student exercises so they can learn to balance on the new outside ski before the new arc begins, Basically the Phantom Move (in the high C) the TTS instructor teaches the student to push the ski away, turn it to the falline, extend to create angles.

If you see a pattern developing here, PMTS is teaching the skier to undue everything that is screwing up a skier's skiing, and you can guess where he came by this way of skiing.

This goes along with the second half of Irwin's post.
They often rationalize this by saying to themselves "they can't get it" or "conditions weren't conducive to learning" or" she got but he didn't so he can't learn" or a whole host of reasons. They never say to themselves " the student didn't get it so what did I do wrong or is my method wrong" because that would change their belief and threaten their identity.


The really sad thing is that PMTS is not only teaching skiers to ski correctly, from their basic skiing errors they might pick up, (which is fine and normal) but PMTS in most cases has to undue the damage created by TTS. I often think we should be charging the student by how many TTS lessons they have taken. The more they have taken, the more we should charge.

We train and coach many instructors from TTS, it's not easy, first you have to demonstrate to them how the best skiers in the world ski. Because they have no idea. Then you have to explain the biomechanics and the efficiency of the best skier's movements, then you have to show them how these movements can be used to teach to all levels of skiers. This is the big picture, filling in the details comes later. Then you have to demonstrate and let them realize how "they" ski (video, peer feedback and MA) and let them figure out if they want to change. By this time they a fairly intimidated. You can take a horse to water> This is not just a technical issue between PMTS and TTS, it's a cultural belief system you have to infiltrate and reverse. Many instructors who do get some PMTS training begin to see what is happening and they bailout, because they don't want to face the reality of what they have been doing for so many years. If they go back to their TTS instructors friends, their buddies, they are going to be told they are skiing fine, (you ski just like us) and will be told that those PMTS coaches are full of it. It's easy to see why bailing out is more temping than to learn the sport correctly.

That is why I have such high regard for instructors who do take the red pill, (The Matrix) and commit themselves to real learning for the sport of skiing. Ski teaching goes so far beyond Level 3 certification. It's such a beautiful sport when done right. You have to respect the sport and embrace the knowledge it requires to teach it correctly. To achieve a PMTS Black Level, is like getting a masters degree, it takes years of dedication. There are truly few highly skilled ski instructors in the world that can make changes in skiers that stick. You really have to dig in to become a skilled ski instructor.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby semnoz » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:55 am

Erik wrote:
skijim13 wrote:I actually showed a long time friend in the ski school your video and he said every turn made was using rotary, he could not see the truth. I now only talk about PMTS with my wife, I am lucky to have a great partner to work with..


skijim-

With PMTS as a framework for understandiing skiing performance, your MA skills will develop very quickly, and you should accept that you will be able to see things that your fellow ski school instructors just can't see. No matter how interesting it is to you, they just won't understand.


It goes beyond that, we all have the ability to understand, it's that they don't want to understand.

Don't underestimate how hard it is for someone to reject what they have believed for so long to be the truth, especially if they are convinced that their livelihood (or success in ski instruction for the weekend instructor) depends on it, as well as if they have much higher regard for the "truth holders" at the top end of the hierarchy than for "outsiders" that don't have the certification or some form of status/seal of approval that they would recognize.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby emakarios » Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:55 am

Harald said : "We train and coach many instructors from TTS, it's not easy, first you have to demonstrate to them how the best skiers in the world ski. Because they have no idea. Then you have to explain the biomechanics and the efficiency of the best skier's movements, then you have to show them how these movements can be used to teach to all levels of skiers. This is the big picture, filling in the details comes later. Then you have to demonstrate and let them realize how "they" ski (video, peer feedback and MA) and let them figure out if they want to change. By this time they a fairly intimidated. You can take a horse to water> This is not just a technical issue between PMTS and TTS, it's a cultural belief system you have to infiltrate and reverse. Many instructors who do get some PMTS training begin to see what is happening and they bailout, because they don't want to face the reality of what they have been doing for so many years. If they go back to their TTS instructors friends, their buddies, they are going to be told they are skiing fine, (you ski just like us) and will be told that those PMTS coaches are full of it. It's easy to see why bailing out is more temping than to learn the sport correctly.

That is why I have such high regard for instructors who do take the red pill, (The Matrix) and commit themselves to real learning for the sport of skiing. Ski teaching goes so far beyond Level 3 certification. It's such a beautiful sport when done right. You have to respect the sport and embrace the knowledge it requires to teach it correctly. To achieve a PMTS Black Level, is like getting a masters degree, it takes years of dedication. There are truly few highly skilled ski instructors in the world that can make changes in skiers that stick. You really have to dig in to become a skilled ski instructor."


I am a poster child for Harald's description above. My experience is that the cognitive part of learning PMTS typically stays somewhat ahead of my ability to make the movements at a high level. IE, I can "see" the correct movements in a demonstration from a coach and understand the physics and biomechanics. Then I have to get to work and train and practice the movements, with regular feedback from coaches and video. It is not an easy process, but one of our typical mantras at Welch is "what else are we going to do?" We took the red pill.
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