Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby Ihamilton » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:15 pm

I watched a DVD of three instructors in a ski school promotional video this afternoon. The three are in the very top certification of their tts. They did beginner parallel, expert short turns and expert large turns, the latter two on expert terrain, the first one on beginner terrain. Then I watched the whole Performance Free Skiing video of HH, then I watched the SS DVD again.
On the beginner slopes the three tts instructors were skiing much faster than HH, but even with the speed they couldn't hold their balance on their edges without rotating. The rotation made their turn shape in consistent. They brushed their turns below fall line, HH brushed his above FL and had a clean arc below. HH turn shape was identical one after the other. HH hips were stable, no rotation, no falling inside hip. The other three all had their upper body and hips leaning uphill because of the rotation.
On the ST and dynamic larger turns HH is flying yet it looks like he isn't going that fast because his body movements are sutle, no waste movements. HH controls his speed in the high C so he doesn't have to shed unwanted speed. The other three look like they are flying. They don't control their speed in the high C, they sluff off speed below FL often jamming their skis with hockey stop type movements. In the low C, HH continues to tip and pull his free foot back when he has started to soften his stance leg. This causes his skis to continue in their arc and the skis really cut uphill and go under his body. He has a quick transition and his upper body falls to the inside of the new turn in a split second. The other three are jamming their skis sometimes and their turn finish is inconsistent. Their skis don't always cut uphill before transition and so their transition is at least one ski length longer than HH. When they are slow through transition and their upper body is slower to get to the inside, they push off and they don't carve in the high C, they don't have speed control above fall line and they jam the skis. When they put on the brakes at the end of the turn they have a wide stance but narrow it at transition. HH foot width is consistent through out the turn. HH's CB, his CA - especially not letting his outside hand and elbow lead his OS hip and his no swing pole touch make it look like he isn't doing anything. The other three show lots of movement with the poles and hands and often those are recovery movements. Don't get me wrong, these three aren't comical like RS, they are good skiers. However even at full speed and especially with slow motion and stop frames there is a huge difference in how theirskis perform to the performance of HH skis.
The viewer of the SS DVD is asked to just watch the skiing of the three, imprint it on your mind and then just go out and ski naturally, although they were quick to add that nothing beats a ski school lesson. In the Performance Free Skiing DVD HH gives 6 secrets to good skiing and talks us through what he is doing. HH knows that skiing is not natural and everyone needs coaching to improve.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:34 pm

What this demonstrates (thanks Irwin, nice accurate descriptions of movement, BTW) is the difference between World Cup technique and TTS techniques. If you use rotary leg and steering movements you are limited to these results. Plus you end up having to push off to get out of the turn. If you use PMTS lower body tipping and CA, you don't have to scrub and jam the end of your arcs. RS doesn't even enter this discussion, the TTS skiers that Irwin is talking about can ski rings around RS.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby Ihamilton » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:54 am

This morning I was looking for your instructional segment on the brushed carve with a two footed release and I couldn't find it. The demo and voice over make it the best instructional segment I have ever seen. If I study that alone my understanding of the proper movements improves. If anyone knows what I am referring to can you post the segment?
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby Max_501 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:58 am

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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:15 am

Doing MA on this instruction you have to understand that if a TTS instructor watches this, they will tell you I am using leg rotation to steer my skis. The reasons for saying this is obvious, they understand no other way of making skis change direct. It's their way of explaining what I'm doing. As the demonstrator, I can tell you I am avoiding any turning energy from the legs or hips. The initial reactions of my skis are the tips going downhill. This is generated by gravity not my legs feet or hips. I am releasing my edges by flattening my feet, which in turn flattens my skis. Due to the reduction of edge hold from this movement, the skis lose friction and begin to slip downhill. If you can stay forward on the skis and hold your hips in a CA relationship, your leg will follow the tips and falling skis. I stay over the skis moving with the flattening. Many skiers when learning this method will lean uphill, away form the slipping skis. This won't work. If you move with the skis you will keep your balance and the skis will go downhill right to the falline.
I am preparing the inside foot and ski for a tipping action as I head into the falline. The inside ski is the free foot and tipping ski. This action causes the hips and body to move inside and tips the outside ski in edge. It's a slight edge angle at first, which is what you want. If the edge is created by knee drive, and it's rushed, the ski rails and runs away downhill. Also, if you let your skis move to far forward, you will end in the back seat which also causes the skis to rail.

As I say in this video, this is not easy and it does take practice. It is a learning experience and also a great diagnostic tool for you skiing. What you find you are doing wrong in this exercise is amplified in your regular skiing, and the cause for what you find not working in your skiing.. You may not figure out why or what you are doing wrong on your own. That is why you should video this exercise or consult with a PMTS instructor, preferably a Blue Level.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby Ihamilton » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:38 pm

It has been said on another post but only here will find this. I am lucky enough to ski from November until April each year and to be able to spend at least an hour a day just practicing this. What a feeling when you put it together.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby BigE » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:37 pm

This is a video of Schiffrin . After watching this, is there any question why many coaches do not want to teach their athletes anything at all? It's because the way they think about skiing cannot result in this: Note that lack of projection of the center of mass downhill that many coaches speak about....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leLcWCzHcPk
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby skijim13 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:47 am

In the fall issue of 32 degrees a PSIA publication there is an article with the title the "Stivot", which states that a stivot is a skidded redirect into a carved arc. The article states that this new move being is now being used by world cup skiers today and shows an old photo of Bodie using it to win a race in 2003. They further state that the PSIA and coaches are using the technique to train racers.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:24 am

I don't read that trash! Because I know the people who write it and I know what they ski like and how tainted their eyes are.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:32 am

I still know many of the coaches of the major programs, although I've been out of day to day coaching and going to races for 20 years. Do you think for one minute that an academy coach, or ski team coach, who has worked with their athletes day to day, is going to listen and do what a PSIA Demo team guy is telling them to teach or coach. LOL. This is a smoke screen, a PR ploy that is designed to show a marketing cooperation between, National organizations for sponsorship money etc. You can't believe anything they publish, because it's just not true in the real world.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby Ken » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:02 pm

h.harb wrote:...The people with the wrong technique and analysis of World cup skiing have this belief that world cup skiers use anticipation to redirect the skis, to get the tips to go downhill. In fact, what these skiers are doing is using the CA to get the legs and body across there skis, without any twisting or pivoting of the skis.....

THE BACKFIRE EFFECT, "Columbia Journalism Review"
"McRaney spends several thousand words explaining the “backfire effect,” which he nicely summarized in one sentence: “When your deepest convictions are challenged by contradictory evidence, your beliefs get stronger.”"

"...the backfire effect makes it difficult for the press [and well informed blogs... :D ] to effectively debunk misinformation. We present facts and evidence, and it often does nothing to change people’s minds. In fact, it can make people dig in even more. Humans also engage in motivated reasoning, a tendency to let emotions “set us on a course of thinking that’s highly biased, especially on topics we care a great deal about”.

"These two important cognitive effects can have a significant impact on society and debates in the public sphere. "

"... found that affirming statements appeared to be more effective at convincing people to abandon or question their incorrect views ..."
http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_ ... p?page=all
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VIDEO OF NOT ME
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:13 pm

I've given up trying to convince, long ago, in your highlighted quote, I'm pointing out how they think, and why they think that way, I'm speaking to the constituency, to explain where the misconceptions originate. I'm not trying to change anyone's convictions. Just like I don't try to convince Catholics that Lutheran is better. (Just so nothing is misconstrued here I don't believe one is better than the other).

The quote you put up, my writing, my quote, is for forum members, it's not trying to convince or change anyone's mind and that's why I used that style. Have a look a the last 30 posts on my Blog, if you want to put up examples of my writing used to teach and inform. I can't believe you took this one quote, "out of context" and didn't even reference it, to make some kind of point. This is offensive.

But I agree that, convincing buy showing what is wrong is a difficult task. In all of our literature and videos, as well as on You Tube, I/we demonstrate and affirm the benefits of PMTS and how the movements work so well. This is a well known principle of decimating information, that we adhere to in PMTS writings. So Ken, what's your point? Do you have something you want to say??
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:28 pm



This is some of her better skiing. She only had two push-off's in this run. She skied much better at the top, then in the first. Her feet were more organized and working together. She could still lead more with the releasing new inside ski.
I like the Austrian commentators.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby skijim13 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:28 am

Great information on this website, I finally have the correct model to aspire to. Many of us became part time ski instructors for two major reasons, to improve our own skiing, and to help teach others to ski better. We all know it is not for the little money we get paid. Our mountain has a national demo team member on our staff; people in our ski school treat him like a God. Thanks to learning PMTS, I can now look at photos of him racing he has posted on his website and see errors in his skiing. The most obvious errors are no CA, no pullback of the inside ski, so CB but should he should be using more. I could never dare share with anyone at my ski school because I would be run out of town. When other people saw me working on tipping drills they thought it was a waste of time. I told them that I make turns now without adding rotary movement, they all told me it is impossible to turn with turning your legs. I actually showed a long time friend in the ski school your video and he said every turn made was using rotary, he could not see the truth. I now only talk about PMTS with my wife, I am lucky to have a great partner to work with. I have used PMTS on many of my children students to get them out of the wedge fast and many are skiing better then their parents who still ski on their inside edges only. I sure if they the parents buy the new Fat Skis they could get better LOL.
Last edited by skijim13 on Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby Skiasaurus Rex » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:05 am

Harald,

I think, from my reading, that Ken sought to support the general point of this thread and not to undermine it. I believe the point of his post, was to offer an explanation why TTS instructors remain so entrenched and recalcitrant in their 'misunderstanding of skiing' in spite of the clearly articulated analyses of world cup technique put forth by keen coaches as embodied in your quote he referenced to begin his post.

I read this post as an attempt to comprehend why TTS coaches cling so dearly to their 'misunderstanding' of ski technique in the face of very precise and clear explanations of the highest level of ski technique by you. That seems to be on topic and in line with the general spirit of this thread.

And, your short video on the road to carving is the best articulation on the web of how to acquire expert technique: Clear, concise, physiologically specific and beautifully demonstrated. You know, until I just watched it I didn't really understand the differences between the two-footed release and TTS versions of edge release-and how this makes a heap more sense than practicing pivot slips. There is a year's worth of lessons in that 6 minute video.
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