Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:08 pm

It's OK, the statute of limitation, is 10 years for that kind of thing. You didn't get kicked out, that has no statue of limitation.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby A.L.E » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:55 am

This is some of RS thinking on racing and early Hi C edge engagement. Sorry.....a blast from the past on Epic.

.....This is where HH MA really goes astray. One of his pet PMTS technical philosophies is the emphasis he places on early pressure during the high C portion of the turn. That is, the portion of the turn immediately proceeding the transition, while the skis are still at their sharpest angle to falline. This is a very good thing for recreational skiers to work on, and I'm sure Greg could do it in his sleep, but it's not something that WC racers do. High C edge engagement equates to arc to arc skiing. Modern course sets and racer tactics have made arc to arc skiing a comparatively round, slow and non-competitive tactic. What's really needed to be competitive is a pivoted redirection that eliminates high C engagement, and delays that engagement till the falline.

Only on the flats, where offset in minimized, will high C pressure focus have any relevancy in modern technical event ski racing. Consistently encouraging high C engagement to racers is very dated advice, and will only serve to make them less competitive. Joseph advocated the same thing to Greg over on Realskiers, obviously following HH misguided high C lead.


He races, I don't, so it's not my place to comment on what racer's practice or experience. I do though recall Ted or Darren saying in a magazine interview that was posted here or over there, saying they didn't practice pivots/stivots because they were slow. Carving practice was the focus, pivots/stivots happen naturally as a result of gate placement
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby Matt » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:46 am

A.L.E wrote:This is some of RS thinking on racing and early Hi C edge engagement. Sorry.....a blast from the past on Epic.

.....This is where HH MA really goes astray. One of his pet PMTS technical philosophies is the emphasis he places on early pressure during the high C portion of the turn. That is, the portion of the turn immediately proceeding the transition, while the skis are still at their sharpest angle to falline. This is a very good thing for recreational skiers to work on, and I'm sure Greg could do it in his sleep, but it's not something that WC racers do. High C edge engagement equates to arc to arc skiing. Modern course sets and racer tactics have made arc to arc skiing a comparatively round, slow and non-competitive tactic. What's really needed to be competitive is a pivoted redirection that eliminates high C engagement, and delays that engagement till the falline.

Only on the flats, where offset in minimized, will high C pressure focus have any relevancy in modern technical event ski racing. Consistently encouraging high C engagement to racers is very dated advice, and will only serve to make them less competitive. Joseph advocated the same thing to Greg over on Realskiers, obviously following HH misguided high C lead.


He races, I don't, so it's not my place to comment on what racer's practice or experience. I do though recall Ted or Darren saying in a magazine interview that was posted here or over there, saying they didn't practice pivots/stivots because they were slow. Carving practice was the focus, pivots/stivots happen naturally as a result of gate placement

Nothing can be more wrong than what RS says above. I cannot recall how many interviews I have seen where coaches and athletes state that they have been focusing a lot of the pre-season technical training on getting as early engagement as possible. Off course sometimes it is not possible to get very early engagement, but that does not mean they are not trying.
Also what RS does not seem to understand is that when you switch edges the direction of the skis change, but this does not matter because what matters is the direction of the skis compared to the direction of the CoM. This means that even though it may look like a pivot, it is still carving.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby geoffda » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:37 am

Matt wrote:Nothing can be more wrong than what RS says above. I cannot recall how many interviews I have seen where coaches and athletes state that they have been focusing a lot of the pre-season technical training on getting as early engagement as possible. Off course sometimes it is not possible to get very early engagement, but that does not mean they are not trying.
Also what RS does not seem to understand is that when you switch edges the direction of the skis change, but this does not matter because what matters is the direction of the skis compared to the direction of the CoM. This means that even though it may look like a pivot, it is still carving.


Yep. RS seems to think that racers come into a turn thinking, "O.K., this is too tight, I'm going to pivot my skis now." That just isn't correct. When you go to make a turn, your instinct is to get the ski on edge and get it carving. Now maybe you don't have the skill to actually make it happen for that particular turn, and the end result is something else, but any racer worth their salt goes in *trying* to carve. They sure as hell aren't going to review their run afterwards and think, "gee if only I would have pivoted better in the 6th and 7th gates, I could have made the podium..." No, what they are going to do is say, "Crap, I really screwed up on the 6th and 7th gates--I was sliding like crazy. With the basketball turn thrown in, it was pure survival mode for me. Everybody was struggling there, but three or four of the other guys were much better than me. I saw so and so go through there and even though he slid into the 6th, he was able to set up well and nail the 7th. I'm pretty sure that's where he won the race. I've got to figure out how to carve more of that section because I lost way too much time with my skis sideways..."

The entire reason that Ted Ligety was so dominant in GS last season with the new 35 meter skis was because he was the only one who was able to get his skis carving consistently at the top of the arc. Everyone else was sliding the top of the turn where he was carving and the result was that Ligety was crushing the field by huge margins. I'm sorry, but arguing that carving the high C is slow is simply indefensible--particularly after clinic that Ligety put on for the entire season last winter.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:54 am

Can someone remind me, who is RS? Ok I get it it's his initials, I was thinking Fastman?
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby geoffda » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:59 am

Yeah, RS==Fastman.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:21 am

His technical skiing knowledge is so convoluted I wouldn't have a clue where to start skiing like he suggests even if I could figure out his philosophy and progression. And why would I want to ruin my skiing.

PMTS has a proven track record, a number of books an manuals, not only is it easy to follow but it's more effective than any system till now.

As far as what RS writes here it's confusing.


RS wrote:One of his ( he's referring to me) pet PMTS technical philosophies is the emphasis he (Harald) places on early pressure during the high C portion of the turn.


Will someone tell me where I wrote this, because i don't have this philosophy and I constantly tell skiers "not to pressure" or push into the ski in the High C. It's actually explained in detail in the Essentials book. Max-501 and Geoffda are the historians, and if I said this I'd like to know because it was mistaken or written incorrectly. I never believed this was the way to ski and it certainly isn't part of PMTS. I have always said early high C preparation and engagement, not pressure. Engaging means putting the skis on edge and balancing on the edges it doesn't mean pressuring. Pressuring in the high C would require an extension and pushing or standing, I have never written or advised to do this. So why is he making this shit up? ALE do you have any idea?,
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:30 am

After that RS says:
That is, the portion of the turn immediately proceeding the transition, while the skis are still at their sharpest angle to falline


What the hell is he talking about, this is totally backward. He doesn't even understand which part of the turn the high C is in. "Immediately preceding the transition", that's the end of the turn???????

Do you see why this guy is totally screwed up? Didn't anyone catch this????????

Then he says:
This is a very good thing for recreational skiers to work on
It's not a good thing to work on for anyone. a true baboon.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:45 am

Geoffda wrote:Yep. RS seems to think that racers come into a turn thinking, "O.K., this is too tight, I'm going to pivot my skis now." That just isn't correct. When you go to make a turn, your instinct is to get the ski on edge and get it carving. Now maybe you don't have the skill to actually make it happen for that particular turn, and the end result is something else, but any racer worth their salt goes in *trying* to carve. They sure as hell aren't going to review their run afterwards and think, "gee if only I would have pivoted better in the 6th and 7th gates, I could have made the podium..." No, what they are going to do is say, "Crap, I really screwed up on the 6th and 7th gates--I was sliding like crazy. With the basketball turn thrown in, it was pure survival mode for me. Everybody was struggling there, but three or four of the other guys were much better than me. I saw so and so go through there and even though he slid into the 6th, he was able to set up well and nail the 7th. I'm pretty sure that's where he won the race. I've got to figure out how to carve more of that section because I lost way too much time with my skis sideways..."


This is so true I could have written it word for word. Excellent and highly insightful about the way a racer thinks, you only get this if you have been racing for years. Well done Geoff. RS would never understand this type of thinking, because he's not a racer, he's a Nastar skier. We are taking about world cup, FIS or Nor Am levels of skiing and PMTS technique here, not NAstar. Although the young man who did win the overall Nastar this year is PMTS coached.

And the reason RS hates flexing or retracting in transition is because he can't do it. He has to extend, the ways skis is totally in the back seat, his balance is over his skis. in Nastar on those hills you can sit on your tails and just wiggle yourself through the turns. His position on his skis is so poor, if he flexes to release after two turns, he is so far in the back seat his skis run down the mountain on him. He literally can not make a flexing transition. He calls himself a racer, he's not even close, he's a hack.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:22 am

What is amazing is that he actually puts this stuff up on You tube. This is so bad it defies embarrassing, it deserves to be in the all time history of how not to ski. He's not ashamed of this, that's what is truly amazing. I won't even begin to list the technical errors in this skiing, plus it's ugly. One of the biggest most obvious positional errors is he's totally misaligned and in the back seat "all the time". How can you even begin to formulate how to ski with a base of understanding like this?????
And how desperate do you have to be to listen to a guy like this????


I maybe wrong, but I think the guys on the Epic forum were even smart enough to get rid of him. Maybe that's why he's hanging on to the Aussie forum now, the last place to still screw people up. Where does he go next, the slopes of Upper Mongolia?
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby Basil j » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:43 am

I have an untrained eye as I am a newbie to PMTS. but what I see here is typical PSIA stuff. i think the average recreational skier would look at this guy and think he is pretty good. What I see is:

No lead initiation with the inside ski
minimal counter rotation.
Shoulders are tipped on every turn
weight looks like it evenly distributed on both skis
feet are fairly wide apart.
no flex between turns. standard unweighting happening at every turn.
Although it looks fairly function at a recreational level, it is pretty much the opposite of what I have observed and read in my PMTS materials so far.
Is my analysis fairly accurate?
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:54 pm

In the bigger picture yes your MA has merit. When you look at the causes of his skiing deficiencies the root problems are huge, that's why he has such gross movements used as compensation. They are not technique per say, they are forced on him because of his inability to balance near the center of the skis..

This is not a subtle imbalance he has, it's a huge problem and he has obviously not been able to fix it. In his turns his hips drop and go back, low behind his skis on every turn. This puts him in the back seat when he's supposed to be releasing the energy from the turn and ski. He has no energy from the turn, it's absorbed through his turn with his hips moving down and back. He is never ahead of his boots and his hips never even make it to neutral over the skis. This causes him to have to push off in every turn. He can't flex to release or he'd be on his butt, he's already dragging his butt when it's time to release, flexing is not an option.. He never bends the ski, because he can't get pressure to the tip. He's always on a flat hill because on any steep or bumps run he's be desperate.

This is non functional skiing, in a slalom he'd be eaten alive by Master racers twice his age. On a flat hill Nastar hill he could make it down, but anyone with any skills at all would beat this skiing by seconds, not tenths.

Notice the push to move his center into the turn, this results in a stiff outside leg. He's doing exactly what he says you should not do "pressure the top of the turn". There is no way he could follow the tracks of a Blue Level PMTS skier, I don't mean Blue PMTS accredited. I mean Blue level campers can ski circles around this technique.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby milesb » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:34 pm

Harald, the only thing I have ever seen you say about pressure in the HIgh C is to not seek it.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby A.L.E » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:01 pm

h.harb wrote:His technical skiing knowledge is so convoluted I wouldn't have a clue where to start skiing like he suggests even if I could figure out his philosophy and progression. And why would I want to ruin my skiing.

PMTS has a proven track record, a number of books an manuals, not only is it easy to follow but it's more effective than any system till now.

As far as what RS writes here it's confusing.


RS wrote:One of his ( he's referring to me) pet PMTS technical philosophies is the emphasis he (Harald) places on early pressure during the high C portion of the turn.


Will someone tell me where I wrote this, because i don't have this philosophy and I constantly tell skiers "not to pressure" or push into the ski in the High C. It's actually explained in detail in the Essentials book. Max-501 and Geoffda are the historians, and if I said this I'd like to know because it was mistaken or written incorrectly. I never believed this was the way to ski and it certainly isn't part of PMTS. I have always said early high C preparation and engagement, not pressure. Engaging means putting the skis on edge and balancing on the edges it doesn't mean pressuring. Pressuring in the high C would require an extension and pushing or standing, I have never written or advised to do this. So why is he making this shit up? ALE do you have any idea?,


Back when Heluva was on the rocky road, Hi C got some focus with his MA.

......
The upper and lower body are not supporting pressure building. The turn arc is not reduced or shortened by pressuring the ski, the side cut is grinding into the snow doing all the turning, this is OK for a recreational skier, but for a racer this won?t hold up. This is evident because the upper body leans away from where pressure needs to develop. When the upper body leans away, the turn has to have a hard hit at the finish, because the pressure was not loaded higher in the arc.

There is little preparation in the High C phase of the turn. The upper body comes square much too early, which is also a pressure robber. The square upper, to lower body position reduces hip angle, this is demonstrated by where the inside leg resides. You see the inside leg is not flexed under the hips, it is at the same angle as the out side ski, this tells me there is reduced pressure on the outside ski.

I can verify that by the release, as it is an up movement release, which means the rebound to send the skier to the next turn with a float, did not happen and will not happen...........


...A program for this skier, first his feet are too far apart, that?s part of the reason the CM is sitting on or over the inside leg rather than inside the turn, and why he has to extend to get out of the turn. If he could ski without weighting his inside ski it would really help develop balance. This skier has yet to make a turn that demonstrates the use of balance, that I?ve seen. It would be a building process to undo and rebuild a real project. .....


I don't take this as pressure I take it as early weight and balance transfer.
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Re: Another example of complete misunderstanding of skiing.

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:04 pm

Yes that was for Helluva when he was asking about PMTS MA, rather than a prescription or philosophy of PMTS. I think Fastman or RS is still burned up that Helluva skier improved so much and so fast over the internet, compared to the coaching he was giving him. I have never even skied with Helluva and gave him the coaching via PM. Now that is an "indictment" (a thing that serves to illustrate that a system or situation is bad and deserves to be condemned:) of how bad Fastman's coaching is.

As I remember, by PM, and video, it took about half a ski season to see major improvements in Helluva's skiing. I don't know how long Fastman/RS had, to screw up Greg's skiing, but I think it was more than a season.
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