Simple experiment

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Re: Simple experiment

Postby Hobbit » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:45 pm

rwd wrote: I could post some drawings, if someone could tell me how to attach to a post.


The common forum post practice (including this forum) is that hosting or attaching images to the posts is not allowed.

It is really simple to include a link to the image or video in your post and there are plenty of image / video hosting sites which specialize in hosting images, etc. When you are using the embedded browser editor for posting the message on this forum there are a lot of buttons on the top of the editor frame. One of those is an "Img" button and when you press it the image markup quotes will be inserted into your text. Then you need to paste the URL of the image which you uploaded to the image hosting site.
If you have problems with this just send me a PM with the URL for the image you have uploaded somewhere and I will edit your post to look right.
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby rwd » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:51 am

Max_501 wrote:
rwd wrote:1. Stand parrallel to hip-high counter, R hip fist width from edge. R foot is stance foot. Lift left(free) foot and drop L hip, while moving R hip laterally to touch counter edge. Return to neutral position, then put free foot down. I usually do 10-20 rep per side. This exercise helps with use of the pelvis in CB.


Raising the inside hip is CB so this exercise is opposite of CB.


A single dryland exercise to practice both CB and CA: Balance on stance leg, raise free hip allowing torso to lean sideways over stance side, then turn pelvis and torso as a unit towards the stance side. Turn back and lower free hip and foot to starting position. These movements are controlled entirely with the gluteal muscles of the stance hip. The pelvis and torso move as a unit, with no twisting or side bending of the spine.











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Re: Simple experiment

Postby Matt » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:25 am

rwd wrote:
Is there a bio-mechanical advantage to leading CA and CB with the hips rather than the torso?


Yes, if you CA and CB with the spine rather than hip you have bad anatomy for the spine. The core is used to stabilize the spine, not rotate or bend.
Also part of the reason for hip CA is that you enter state where CB is easier and stronger.
There are probably more reasons.
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby geoffda » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:06 am

Matt wrote:
rwd wrote:
Is there a bio-mechanical advantage to leading CA and CB with the hips rather than the torso?


Yes, if you CA and CB with the spine rather than hip you have bad anatomy for the spine. The core is used to stabilize the spine, not rotate or bend.
Also part of the reason for hip CA is that you enter state where CB is easier and stronger.
There are probably more reasons.


Both CA and CB must come from the hips (and the torso follows). With respect to Counteracting, the point is to counteract the rotation of your femurs that is a side-effect of tipping. Twisting your torso does nothing in that respect. Only when you move your hips in the opposite direction of the rotation will you successfully counteract. This is why "skiing into counter" doesn't work. The rotation needs to be counteracted above the fall-line; even assuming you could ski your hips into counter, it is already too late by the time you got there. Also moving the hips is necessary to maintain the most ideal fore-aft position over the skis

CB is much stronger when it comes from the hips because you are moving the point at which you are counterbalancing much closer to your feet when the movement comes from the hips.

Also, what Matt is mentioning is correct as well. Skeletally, you are in a much strong position when you involve your hips. Combining CA and CB movements using the hips puts you in a "stacked" position where you can resist the turn forces with the least amount of muscular effort.
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby h.harb » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:05 pm

All well and good however, most skiers don't have any sense of CA and CB before PMTS. So the last place they usually are able to implement these actions is at the hips and Glutes. Because they have never used them before. Due to the inertia potential of the upper body into motion, it does make a difference if you control both CA and CB with the torso to begin with, this gives you some control over rotation and leaning, so you can't rule out the torso as the source of wrong movements. If all of you who now know where CA and CB actually should originate; remember where you came from to get a handle on it. It sure was not immediately by using hip and pelvis movements. Those movements need to be developed through awareness and practice. It's like a parallel skier telling a wedge christie skier, "Come on, it's easy to keep your feet together and parallel, once you know how."
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby Max_501 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:10 pm

I agree with Harald.

Frankly I have doubts that I would be able to CB effectively without recruiting the torso's core muscles to stabilize the torso on a high angle turn.
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby geoffda » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:51 pm

Max_501 wrote:I agree with Harald.

Frankly I have doubts that I would be able to CB effectively without recruiting the torso's core muscles to stabilize the torso on a high angle turn.


True, but unless you lift the inside hip along with that, as you know, you can't CB effectively either. I think Harald's point is simply that for many people, starting with moving the torso as they begin to experiment with the concepts of CA and CB is more natural and getting the torso in the right place is certainly better than the alternative. I wasn't saying don't move the torso, I was just saying start the CA and CB movements with the hips. That in response to the question, "what is the biomechanical advantage to leading CA and CB with the hips".
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby h.harb » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:08 pm

That is why in a previous post, I included the muscles that help tilt and stabilize the torso laterally, on both sides.. While one side is helping to stabilize to raise the hip, the other side pulls the ribs toward the iliac crest.
The external and internal obliques together with the quadratus lumborum and erector spinae muscles are involved.

I always had the hips working for me, I never had to think about it in my skiing, however when things got really steep and icy. I have to also engage the torso.
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby h.harb » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:19 pm

If you watch Hirscher skiing slalom, he often enters the top of the turn without much CB, however as soon as the forces of the turn start building he pulls the upper body and torso into CB. Ted on the other hand didn't have that ability last season. Mike Janyk doesn't have it either. Hirscher's hip counter acting is natural for him. You have to be perfect with your the upper body CB to delay it, as the best skiers do. If you are not a natural with hip CA and CB it is more difficult to develop than upper body CB.
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby h.harb » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:50 pm

That in response to the question, "what is the biomechanical advantage to leading CA and CB with the hips".


If you have leading CB and CA with the hips your balance and Cg are working together; you can be more versatile and whip the upper body into place as you see fit. If you don't you have it, you really have to discipline your upper body so it stays out of rotation and leaning, all the time. It's less relaxing and looks like the skier is stiff, the upper body is always under tension, without hip CA and Cb.
Also with the hips titling the right way in transition, the upper body with less effort almost follows naturally into CB.

Notice how with skiers who are learning this movement, hip CB and CA, when they don't have it, the arms and poles have the tendency to drop inside and fall behind. The Canadians show this tendency frequently when they first come to camp. That is because their Alliance of Instructors pays little attention to these movements. With enough training of the upper body, lower body CB improves.

THis is the program I developed last summer for the young racers I was working with at Hood. We did nothing but inside arm and pole blocking with two poles per turning gate. I placed a long full length helper pole, inside and above the turning pole. The turning pole was a shortie or stubby. Before I introduced cross blocking everyone of the skiers was leading into the arc with the inside arm forward and high. This creates a real need for a CAed hip and upper body. It also reinforces torso Cb. We added a long pole to the turning gate, (removed the long helper pole) only after I was satisfied the kids really had the movements, and it was working, they were holding on to the correct upper body and hand as they passed the pole, even while cross blocking..

This is critical to develop with racers before they turn 12 or 13. It's "one" of the key elements, that separated the top 4 slalom skiers from the rest of the pack. Without it, you up end up like the Italians or the Swedes or Ligety, who rarely finished and when they did, it was rarely breaking into the top 4.
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby Matt » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:26 pm

^^Like! I will use that in the coming season for the young kids. Only problem is the other coaches consistently insisting on cross-blocking :cry:
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby rwd » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:05 am

geoffda wrote:
Max_501 wrote:I agree with Harald.

Frankly I have doubts that I would be able to CB effectively without recruiting the torso's core muscles to stabilize the torso on a high angle turn.


True, but unless you lift the inside hip along with that, as you know, you can't CB effectively either. I think Harald's point is simply that for many people, starting with moving the torso as they begin to experiment with the concepts of CA and CB is more natural and getting the torso in the right place is certainly better than the alternative. I wasn't saying don't move the torso, I was just saying start the CA and CB movements with the hips. That in response to the question, "what is the biomechanical advantage to leading CA and CB with the hips".


The point of my earlier posts was simply that doing the dryland hip exercises increased my awareness of the hip motions involved in CB/CA. I wondered if anyone else might find them useful, as they are often not natural movements for many skiers.
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby h.harb » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:57 am

rwd,
The point of my earlier posts was simply that doing the dryland hip exercises increased my awareness of the hip motions involved in CB/CA. I wondered if anyone else might find them useful, as they are often not natural movements for many skiers.


I don't want to offend you but, we covered this ground and the response was, by your description many of us can't figure out your exercises, so although they maybe helpful to you, (without skiing video we don't know if this is the case) they are irrelevant, until we know what they are. Is there an internet or you tube video that shows the exercises you are referring to? Or can you describe them so they can be duplicated.
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby Max_501 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:33 am

[By Harald Harb; first published on the website on 28 October, 2006]

-------------------------------------------------
In the original "Quick Improvement Series" posted on the PMTS forum, I discussed the similarities and differences between a very good PMTS skier and myself...

Image

The two upper images are very similar and they are at almost the same place in the turn arc. The turn setup for both skiers is essentially the same.

The differences appear in the two lower images. Harald (in red & white) has dropped his hips lower into the turn and has achieved higher edge angles. As well, Harald has achieved greater vertical separation of the feet due to increased flexion of the inside leg.

How can you achieve these refinements?
* More aggressive bending (flexing) of the inside leg drops the hips closer to the slope, inside the arc of the turn
* Tipping the torso toward the stance ski to create more counterbalancing will keep you in balance as you achieve higher edge and tipping angles.

Diana and I discussed these images as well as the skiing of several other PMTS regulars. It's clear that the pelvis has a job to do in skiing and in achieving edge angles. The forces of a turn, generated by your ski edges on the snow, that allow your torso to be "inside" the turn, are transmitted up your stance leg into one hip socket. Because there is a separation between your hip socket and your spine it takes a torque around the stance hip to support the weight of your body.

Image

Without this torque, indicated by the arrow in the image above, you would be unable to hold your hips level while balancing on one foot.

Try an exercise while facing a mirror. Stand on a block, book, or sturdy table so that your free leg (here, Harald's right) can hang without touching the floor. Put a band of string or elastic snugly around your hips so you can see the angle of the pelvis. Balance on one foot and see if you can keep the pelvis level (the elastic should be horizontal). Slowly lower the free side of the pelvis as though to lower your free foot to the floor. Don't flex the stance leg to achieve this; make sure that your elastic tilts. Then, slowly raise the free hip so that the free foot lifts away from the floor. Again, make sure that you are tilting the elastic.

Image
Notice on the free side lift, the glutes are not the muscles used to lift the leg and hip. My torso is tilting toward the free side, it's the only one of the three photos where this happens, these are the torso muscles contracting, the ones I mentioned earlier in the thread . The gluts are engaged on the "stance side" to help stabilize the hip and keep the leg straight. Notice how the top of my pelvis doesn't tip forward in these exercises. Most skiers collapse, drop the butt, flex at he waist, when they try to stand on one foot. Remember this is not ski turn related, this is an exercise for awareness. The photos below with my feet on edge are ski related.
Look at the influence of the angle of the pelvis while on edge. Note that the free leg is now Harald's left. We notice that many people obtain the pelvis angle shown in Frame A, even when they are working hard to tip and counterbalance. Fewer skiers are able to achieve the pelvis angle shown in Frame C.

Image

Look again at the two lower images in the comparison at the top of the page. The skier on the left has his free hip lower than Harald's free hip. Harald has "tilted" his pelvis to keep it closer to horizontal; the pelvis is counterbalanced with the torso. The other skier's pelvis is leaned into the turn; it is not counterbalanced with the rest of the torso. Harald demonstrates the pelvis orientation of Frame C, while the other skier resembles Frame A.
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Re: Simple experiment

Postby Max_501 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:25 am

So, you really want to learn how to use your hips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbsCfqDXZtQ

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