PMTS not Carving

[BigE]

If you must know what I find the most offensive about this whole thing is this:

It is for these very reasons that Mr. Botti stated that I did not participate in the silly discussions like the one on this thread. The Guests, antagonists, call them whatever; show limited experience and knowledge of skiing. They have nothing to contribute but to argue that you need rotary movements and or steering in every ski turn.

I won?t use my time to educate every, want-to-be-recognized, want to be expert, who comes on the forum with attitudes. They don?t believe or understand anything logical anyway, so what?s the point. This discussion leads no where and everything in it has been discussed in detail on this forum and in PMTS literature.

Fastman says WC skiers use steering *sometimes*.

After suggesting he's a wanna-be loser, HH implies that Fastman advocates using steering *always*.

But Fastman did not say that, and clearly stated so.

Anyone will tell you that WC skiers do not use steering always.

They prefer to go edge to edge always, but steering is still needed *sometimes*.

This has absolutely nothing to do with PMTS. It has everything to do with an earlier claim that WC skiers never steer.

No gaper here is telling you how to ski, or that PMTS sucks and PSIA rules. What we are told, however, is that the PSIA sucks, PMTS rules and anyone that disagrees is an ignorant loser.

This thread has convinced me no longer to read or post here. The ignorance displayed here is overwhelming. I want no part of this.

Goodbye all.

[John Mason]

Ydnar - I was trying to understand precisely how foot steering is beneficial in directing a carve in an much earlier discussion. I've spoken at length with Jay about this.

Rusty - I think your view of using direct rotary is more like Bob's bow tie thing, rotation created with the hip rotators.

Personally I still don't see how either of these moves are better for skiing than what I've been shown and taught by HH,Diana,Arc(Roger Cane), and Clendenon. These are standout instructors I've worked with that can demonstrate where the "rubber meets the road" each with their own ways of explaining things but using the same movement patterns.

Specifically watching my two Lafayette ski club friends that are decades long skiers work with Clendenon on the Deck to remove specifically both foot steering and hip rotator steering and seeing the results dynamically on the deck and on the slope was very enlightening. Except for my first push the grape under the big toe lesson I've only had PMTS style instruction (and was mostly the same at the PSIA ran MT Hood camps I went to). There has been on focus on rotation generated by pivoting moves in my training. But, my two friends that are comforatble black skiers, were just the oppisite. They came in to the Clendenon session with the more traditional instructional base.

Ydnar - I'll be at deer valley in March. Perhaps you can show me your interpetation of foot steering to go precisely where you want to go. (though you might have more fun doing it in carvers or on a ski deck)

Rusty - rain check for you too.

Intellectually I still haven't seen a discussion of why these movements would be superior than the easily controllable passive movements I've been taught. The bundle of nerves in the foot are highest on the LTE side of the foot. Learning to control and manage balance with the LTE of the uphill ski while tipping the downhill ski to initiate turns so far is the most precise method I've been shown or tried in my 93 ski days in the last 2 years. I've played with foot steering and pivot slips, then Clendenon showed us drills that make pivot slips look like a cakewalk using just fore/aft balance shifts at the feet. Clendenon's methods were much more balanced and in control and easier than just twisting the handlebar.

But this is much easier to trade movement patterns on the slope than in a forum.

Sorry to lose you BigE. I have appreciated our lively discussions over the last year (starting with the Canadian hoppers as I recall).

[tommy]

This thread is *really* hilarious!

And the weirdest part IMHO is why on earth all the "non-PMTS" people even bother to read or post here, since there's nothing to learn from PMTS....?

Must be some kind of _macho-kistic_ desire's coming through.... "Oh yes, hit me again, baby....!"

Please keep on posting, I've had a really rough week dealing with a bunch of morons at work - I really do appreciate a good laugh in a different context!

--T

[Real skier]

Ignorant: Lack of knowledge or intelligence

Ignore: refuse to take notice

The two words are from the same root and comprise the type of comments and discussion demonstrated by the Rotarians and the steering advocates. They demonstrate ignorance not only in their skiing knowledge but also in their inability to determine the difference in results and approaches used in two completely different systems.

One system works to increase skiing pleasure and advancement and the other only serves as a vehicle for a bunch or incompetent skiers who are instructors. Do you have nothing better to strive for than flaunting a distorted, self-perceived competence?

Posts by Rusty and Fastman and BigE demonstrate a level of ignorance about skiing that goes beyond comprehension. They are not capable of evaluating the destruction they preach, present or produce.

An average skier like me who has taken lessons from both systems can only compare skiing results before and after lessons. I have video and observations of my friends and fellow skiers who have taken both PSIA lessons and the Harb method. There is no comparison. Someone who would argue differently is beyond ignorant they are simply incapable of facing reality.

You are passionate, but you can never convince, as your hypothesis is not reality, it can only be a justification for your inadequacy.

There could be no other logic for continuing a discussion where you offer no proof, no results, or backing. Harb has proof, he has results, he has growing customer base, and you have nothing. You are not even adequate presenters of your weak pathetic cases.

Your weak arguments are based on a product with limited credibility. The participants here are skiers with the knowledge of a far better system. They have abandoned your product. These are consumers. They are your customers, yet you do not listen. You ignore. You will not be able to ignore it for too much longer, your end is coming. Skiers have been fleeced for too long by your poor product. PSIA should be sued for Unfair and Deceptive Trade Practices.


You have obviously no credibility with the PMTS instructors who appear here from time to time. They know what it takes to become PMTS certified. It is not surprising that they have no respect for PSIA accreditations, credentials. Most of the PMTS instructors I talk to used to teach PSIA. They have abandoned it. They realized that when you do the same thing over and over and skiers still ski the same way as the average crowd on a Saturday at any major ski resort, it says that you are more than ignorant. You can only play the ignorant card for so long, it gets old.

[TieHackBurger]

So BigE just says:

"This has absolutely nothing to do with PMTS. It has everything to do with an earlier claim that WC skiers never steer.

No gaper here is telling you how to ski, or that PMTS sucks and PSIA rules. What we are told, however, is that the PSIA sucks, PMTS rules and anyone that disagrees is an ignorant loser. "

And here comes Realskier with nothing to say about modern World Cup technique, but only says PSIA sucks, PMTS rules and anyone that disagrees is an ignorant loser.

Message received. I'm off to join BigE

[John Mason]

that statement "WC skier's never steer" and arguing about it

I'm glad

because a lot of the posts could have been interpeted that leg and foot steering is ok

wait a minute - lots of people in fact said that

I just read a post on Epic about an instructor wanting to know how to move an open parallel skier to:

"1. center stance and balance on both skis"
"2. guide both skis into and throughout the turn, i.e. two footed steering"

So the question I would have is:

Do BigE, Ydnar, Fastman, Rusty view 1 and 2 above as a goal to better skiing?

Hour glass turns were suggested by one responder to address need 2 above.

The more I hear people discuss this and then say HH is just about marketing, the more I'm having demonstrated that, no, the Eskis, Arcmeisters, Clendenons, and HH's of the world approach things differently.

Lito's diner conversion from his web site with Harald discusses these differing views of rotary as well.

I think that's what is it is. Simply different views. It's not the same thing being talked about with different terms but is functionally different. I, like the earlier poster wonder, what is the need to post over here by people defending a use of direct rotary that PMTS actively teaches against? Just accept the difference, admit it's a real difference and teach and ski how you like.

Just look at the instructor statements above. I want to get my open parallel skier to move and improve their skiing and ski with centered balance and foot steering. Or, to paraphrase what I see on the hill all the time: I want my student to learn to ski like a golf cart.

[Tiehack Burger]

well John since eski and arcmeister are both teaching at epic ski academy, perhaps it's not as black and white as you make it.

Furthermore, Johnski, whose recent epic post you cite as some sort of weirdness, is very sympathetic to PMTS. In fact, HH personally made his footbeds. Look at some of his other posts.

But let's take it back to Worldcup. If PMTS was a fundamentally different way to ski that produced measurably superior results-then you would see it all over the Worldcup-where money is at stake, not chat room braggadocio.

World cup montage photos are all over the web.

I'm totally sincere when i ask you to post one that shows textbook PMTS technique. I'm ready to learn.

[Ott Gangl]

>>>Do BigE, Ydnar, Fastman, Rusty view 1 and 2 above as a goal to better skiing?<<<

So John, as this seems to be a technical skiing forum, let's dicuss that. There was nothing in RealSkier's post discussing anything pertaining to the discussion going on, just arrogant, witless dribble that paints a picture to the casual peruser of this forum of someone foaming at the mouth sputtering venom with spittle running down his chin, it does a real disservice to this forum.

You, SkiSynnergy and yes even SCSA seem to be level headed enough to attack the technique you don't like and not the people who are proponents of that technique.

RealSkier suggests that all skiers in the world, except the several dozen PMTS experts, a few hundred PMTS advanced skiers and lots of intermediates eager to do PMTS, are bumbling idiots. And you don't think that hurts your cause?

....Ott

[Rusty Guy]

"1. center stance and balance on both skis"
"2. guide both skis into and throughout the turn, i.e. two footed steering"

So the question I would have is:

Do BigE, Ydnar, Fastman, Rusty view 1 and 2 above as a goal to better skiing?

Yes I do.

I just spent two days skiing at Winter Park with "the other" Bob Barnes who is the SSD and former demo team member.

We worked on steering AND tipping movements.

[NoCleverName]

This thread needs to be wiped off the face of this forum.

There is no point in attacking anyone. It's the kind of thing that can kill off an embryonic forum as this. Nothing is being shared or learned.

Someone kill this thing off.

[John Mason]

See, that's fine. Rusty worked on items one and 2 with BB of nat demo team of winterpark.

It's not the same, but different. Different goals of what top level skiing is and how to attain it.

Most WC skier pics I see show PMTS style techinque. But, over on Epic people have posted that HH never teaches RR turns, but he does. So, peoples impressions of what PMTS looks like and the types of turns that can be produced are obviously different views as well.

John Clendenon has a this years Demo team member working for him. So, different strokes for different demo team members.

I was talking with weems and some WC skiers use a two footed technique with steering like a gal he was mentioning from NZ. The Austrian team wanted her to ski with them but she went with NZ instead. The Austrian team uses a more one ski technique. So not all WC skiers take the same approach either. Van Grunigun skis with what a PMTS'er would call the weighted release.

Just appreciate that there are different approaches. We can discuss the pros and cons and the reasons we think one way or the other way is superior. But the name calling doesn't accomplish anything. Real skier was pointing out in he/she/it's own way what I've been saying a lot. Most PMTS skiers came from the 1 and 2 that Rusty worked on with the other Bob Barnes first. Often for decades of skiing. (like my two friends in the Lafayette ski club that worked with Clendenon last week) Once they learn the new movement patterns they don't go back.

I tried to put in the earlier Phantom Move post why the steerers don't get the phantom move. Biomechanically they are two oppisite ways to control balance and the skis. The two methods can not be mixed due to pre-synanptic inhibition. So, the more I learn and study the differences the more I'm not surprised that the wedded to rotary (as in active like Rusty is talking about) don't get it.

Rusty, play on the deck with one of Clendenon's coaches. Show them your way, then try their way. See what happens. Have you played on a ski deck much yet? Clendenon gets the hip rotator lockup going from my pre-synaptic inhibition post by simply cueing the student to keep the skis the same distance apart. That's all it takes to make a phantom move that does nothing change to one where the hip rotators are co-contracted so things in the kinetic chain work and become obvious.

At some point this post will have to end. So, perhaps my parting thought. The moves of the high level skier are not obvious to the observer. An observer may be certain what they are seeing is leg steering. But as John Clendenon taught us, a perfectly parallel skier in their head and movements are actually sequential skiers. The result ends up being parallel. Also, to watch Clendenon do bumps you'd swear he is foot and leg steering, but he is really just mastered ways of creating rotation passively. He can teach you these on the deck and direct foot steering or hip rotator steering is easy to switch too and compare to the other ways. The results look similar to an inexperienced eye, but are not really similar. V1 software under Diana can look at any skier and see which of the two contradictory ways of skiing are being performed.

So, earlier in the post, we have the argument that steering is an exception case, but now we have come to the idea that - no indeedy - its the normal even desired case. So, we seem to be reaching a consensus that Harald is indeed an anti-rotarian in the direct pivoting of feet or hip rotator sense, while much of the rest of the ski-instruction world is the oppisite. This is Clendenon's conclusion as well and he is grateful for that, as I mentioned earlier, as it's fantastic for his business. So lets keep this hush hush.

[Ott Gangl]

>>>This is Clendenon's conclusion as well and he is grateful for that, as I mentioned earlier, as it's fantastic for his business. <<<

John, just curious, you mention Clendenon in Aspen. Is he running a PMTS franchise within or without the Aspen ski school? Are Weems and Clendenon competitor and does Clendenon run his seperate ski school ticket desk? Just curious how this works. If you don't know I can ask Weems.

....Ott

[John Mason]

Aspen Ski School under Weem's direction opened the umbrella to numerous different private teachers like Lito and Clendenon. Lito is retired now and so is Weems in fact. Weems has gone back to private instruction and his Diamond system (which is more of a motivational system then a technique).

Clendenon's Ski Doctor group has 20 coaches working for John Clendenon including a current and former nat demo team member. In both of the nat demo team members cases, he has had to re-program them and the deck has been very usefull for that as they don't teach any of the PSIA stuff or progessions (yes, even Rusty doesn't like progressions but likes a student directed approach (but SD approach and progressions are not incompatible)).

Also, recently John Clendenon's group became the "technical" part of Weems diamond program for the ski methodology and instruction portion of Weems diamond program. Weems told me this himself. John confirmed it and said this happened after Weems was shown John's stuff on the deck. (it is rather obvious in that environment the technical differences of the movement patterns) Weems, however, embraces all techniques. He is not a PMTS'er yet. I didn't get the idea Weem's has gone the Clendenon approach exclusively in Weem's Diamond system either. I gathered from talking with both of them, this teaming up of the two programs is very recent but I do not have the specifics on the relationship. I do not know what being the technical portion of the Diamond program means in specifics.

So, if you see John teaching at Aspen or his staff they all have on the red Aspen jackets. All money flows through the Aspen Ski School.

I truely wish more resorts took this approach and opened up the competition to the private camps and instructors. It's working great for Aspen. While John is a PMTS Black cert he has transalated the PMTS movements and teaches them with his own terminology. I don't believe he thinks of himself as a "franchise" but as a like minded independent.

Oh, someone made an earlier comment that eski and arc are bear coaches and everyone's not anti PMTS over there. I'm certainly aware of that. But, I'm also aware that if I went to a Bear/Epic event they do not let you pick your coaches and the philosophy and approach and actual movement patterns used by the coaches vary to the point of incompatibility. Rusty enjoyed greatly his lesson with the other BB at winterpark. Based on what he described I personally would run from a lesson like that and view it as a waste of time and money. Now don't get all riled, just realize or discuss how using co-contraction and balance in the hip rotators is compatible with leaving them loose for direct steering in any aspect of skiing. They are 2 completely and not subtle different ways of skiing. Rusty is a consumer of instruction and so am I and we make our seperate choices. (Rusty - try a carver camp someday - cheap, lots of bang for the buck, doesn't require snow)

http://www.fototime.com/F83A7A2389AC8CF/standard.jpg

(Ski Doc in his red Aspen ski instructor jacket on the left - me on the right)

http://www.fototime.com/F83A7A2389AC8CF/orig.jpg

(larger version)

[Ott Gangl]

>>> I don't believe he thinks of himself as a "franchise" but as a like minded independent. <<<

Why I mentioned the franchise is that I thought that PMTS schools must cut HH in on their take, I may be wrong, and in that case anyone could teach PMTS or a mix of that and traditional (like needing the wedge for control in smaller ski areas) without HH permision.

...Ott

[Guest]

To beat this already dead horse even further - I was wondering about an analogy with car racing: in F1 (you know, M. Schumacher, Kimi R?ikk?nen & co), they don't "skid" their turns unless absolutely necessary, e.g. when recovering from a previous, bad move. They try to "carve clean arcs". But in rally (guys like Marcus Gr?nholm, Sebastian Loeb, Carlos Sainz etc), they do "skid" most of the time, even though I read in an interview with Loeb that he's trying to drive more like those guys in F1.

Anyone volunteering to make an analogy to skiing ?

Cheers,
Tommy