Off piste - technique and tactics

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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby h.harb » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:34 pm

John, Don't forget Jay, you also want to ski like Jay.

John is absolutely right, but few, except some on this forum (there are exceptions who don't post here) have dedicated themselves to learning like John and Max. Most that have, are here on the forum, and we can tell who they are, just by the questions and the posts. I've never skied with Helluva, but I know he has done the work, so you don't have to have a Harb camp background, I know by the posts who has done the homework or research. What you post here, it is like a telescopic view into your skiing intellect, so use this as a posting check, with advice from Mark Twain:



"Is it Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a PMTS expert, than to open it and remove all doubt"? This obviously can be taken both ways.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby Max_501 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:53 pm

h.harb wrote:John, Don't forget Jay, you also want to ski like Jay.


I want to ski like Jay! :D
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby jbotti » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:44 pm

Yes, I also want to ski like Jay. Out of sight out of mind. If he would post once in awhile instead of being out there becoming and even better skier I would not have left him off that list.

Jay, come back we miss you!
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby HighAngles » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:54 pm

HighAngles wrote:Well my take is that when conditions are trickier (steeper, deeper, cruddy, etc.) your focus on the essentials must be sufficiently strong with a concentration of "more" for everything. I don't specifically recall if there was a particular "focus" requested for this run, but clearly I could have benefited from stronger tipping (exhausting the tipping range with the lower body first), more flexion (especially important in steeper terrain & deeper conditions), developing and holding the CA (it definitely get's away from me), and clearly my fore/aft was challenged a few times - so a stronger pull back move at each transition.

These are the easy observations though. I think it would be especially beneficial to me (even though my intention wasn't for MA) to look at particular turns in the sequence and discuss where things went wrong (or even where things went right). But let's keep this in the vein of this thread - what can be done to better handle off-piste skiing conditions through application of the essentials?

Max_501 - would you happen to have any video from your posted photos?

BTW - I should note that at the point this video was taken during camp week I certainly had not "assimilated" the new movements we were working on. In fact, I would say that I wasn't really getting it (truly "sunk in") until a couple weeks later after spending time fully digesting my take-aways from camp. I'm looking forward to getting some new video next week.


Yes, I know - it's bad form to quote yourself... :wink:

But I just re-watched my video and realized that there's something that I didn't point out previously. Although all of the essentials continue to need work in my skiing, in the 3 seasons I've spent working on my skiing using PMTS there are some clear results shown in the video I posted. I was never (and I repeat never) able to ski down a 35" pitch in chopped up powder and have consistent turn shape and speed control before PMTS. I made about a dozen turns down that pitch and I never felt out of control or as if I was gaining speed (if anything I was slowing down). I now feel as though I can ski any terrain on any mountain and be able to actually link complete turns the entire way because of the work I've put into one-footed and two-footed releases.

I'm looking forward to really testing my new found skills over this coming week (and I get to share some turns with JBotti on his home turf!).
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby skifastDDS » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:57 am

We had a great powder day at Snowbird yesterday. Tracks kept refilling all day.

Flexing and CA were the name of the game. I honestly don't know how anyone skis that stuff while pushing off.

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Gad Chutes
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby h.harb » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:29 am

I used to take my groups down Gad Chutes all the time, my favorite run, most skiers don't find them. There is one chute at the very end of that ridge that you have to take your skis off to get down over rocks. It's a little risky, but worth it on the other side. I don't think anyone knows the hidden stashes at Snowbird better than Bergie. He showed me the secrets, great memories.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby h.harb » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:00 pm

Back to some of the issues discussed relative to movement, hesitation or locking up, due to fear or apprehension.
You've hit the nail on the head. It's the numerous times before success and then a loss of confidence failure that is most debilitating.



Below, is a quote from George Karl, Head coach of the Denver Nuggets. The Nuggets have the second longest win streak in the NBA right now and they don't have one super star on the team. They win with team play, intensity and speed. They lead the whole league in a number of categories, one is points in the paint and they are second best in the NBA with their home win record. If you read this and apply it to skiing it works beautifully.

"We talk a lot about the word trust," Nuggets coach George Karl said, "trusting each other, trusting the concepts, trusting the intensity. The word trust has been in our game plans a lot. And I have to trust them, they've earned that trust."

You have to have trust and confidence to ski challenging terrain. not in your teammates in yourself. You have to have worked through the concepts and techniques and added enough intensity to make the right movements, no matter what is thrown at you.

First, you have to develop trust in your ability to make movements. This is not the place for faking it, no false over estimation of your skiing in challenging conditions is allowed. This takes time and dedication to develop, it doesn't come by itself. You have to practice and then test yourself in challenging areas that are totally safe first. Once you start trusting your body, then the mind, "control center" relaxes and the body begins to move even better. Confidence is a tricky concept, because many can have too much, which is dangerous. Too much confidence without proven build up in your skiing is dangerous. Trust is the key work, do you trust your movements and how you learned them? Will they be there when you need them, can you rely on your reflex actions to recover? All questions you need to ask yourself.

Developing cautious, confidence is best.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby NoCleverName » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:31 pm

It has to help that the movements you have trust in are proven movements. PMTS movements!
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby h.harb » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:00 pm

What is important is that they are proven to me and I trust them.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby Max_501 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:26 pm

h.harb wrote:What is important is that they are proven to me and I trust them.


And what's important to me is that I trust you. I just do what you say and I improve.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby Max_501 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:28 pm

skifastDDS wrote:We had a great powder day at Snowbird yesterday. Tracks kept refilling all day.

Flexing and CA were the name of the game. I honestly don't know how anyone skis that stuff while pushing off.


This quote is useless without pics of skiers! :lol:
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby skifastDDS » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:29 pm

Max_501 wrote:This quote is useless without pics of skiers! :lol:


True, but the people with me were not willing/able to follow me to that terrain. Thus, no skiing pictures unfortunately.

h.harb wrote:I used to take my groups down Gad Chutes all the time, my favorite run, most skiers don't find them. There is one chute at the very end of that ridge that you have to take your skis off to get down over rocks. It's a little risky, but worth it on the other side. I don't think anyone knows the hidden stashes at Snowbird better than Bergie. He showed me the secrets, great memories.


Sounds awesome. I definitely could have used a guide, Snowbird doesn't seem to like marking their runs.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby HighAngles » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:12 am

Another observation of (or change in) my off-piste tactics this season - I used to only use the TFR when skiing in softer snow and mixed conditions. We did a lot of early season work on the OFR at Short Turns camp this past Fall and I took that work into my off-piste skiing on fatter skis. IMHO, fatter skis (>90mm underfoot) have enough platform with just a single ski to allow the OFR to be quite effective (at least in the conditions in CO). I especially like the "confidence" you get by having your balance established on the LTE before fully releasing the old stance ski. The OFR on fat skis provides a sense of "surefooted-ness" since you're always "connected" to the mountain.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby Max_501 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:12 am

HighAngles wrote:Another observation of (or change in) my off-piste tactics this season - I used to only use the TFR when skiing in softer snow and mixed conditions. We did a lot of early season work on the OFR at Short Turns camp this past Fall and I took that work into my off-piste skiing on fatter skis. IMHO, fatter skis (>90mm underfoot) have enough platform with just a single ski to allow the OFR to be quite effective (at least in the conditions in CO). I especially like the "confidence" you get by having your balance established on the LTE before fully releasing the old stance ski. The OFR on fat skis provides a sense of "surefooted-ness" since you're always "connected" to the mountain.


Depends on snow density, depth, skier weight, and speed. Deep heavy snow and one footed releases are a recipe for disaster. The TFR is more difficult to master but it is the better release in difficult off piste conditions where you need both skis working together as a single platform.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby milesb » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:25 am

It has never occured to me to use a OFR in deep snow, whether fresh or spring (is that what you are talking about?). OTOH, my widest skis these days are 78.

But hey, good on you for using a OFR or TFR instead of a hop turn!
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