Off piste - technique and tactics

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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby Max_501 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:03 am

HA, nice job keeping it together on a steep pitch in challenging conditions! Much harder to do than it looks.

Lets use your video as an example of using this thread to improve off piste skiing. Compare your skiing to these examples. Think about the technique and pictures mentioned so far in this thread. Can you spot any differences?





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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby MonsterMan » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:20 pm

Here's some video of me from Super Blue when we skied West Wall at A-Basin. Not my best skiing, but not my worst (definitely got back on a couple turns), but many of the off-piste techniques and tactics that Max_501 has outlined can be seen in the video.


Nice work HAngles.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby HighAngles » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:30 pm

Well my take is that when conditions are trickier (steeper, deeper, cruddy, etc.) your focus on the essentials must be sufficiently strong with a concentration of "more" for everything. I don't specifically recall if there was a particular "focus" requested for this run, but clearly I could have benefited from stronger tipping (exhausting the tipping range with the lower body first), more flexion (especially important in steeper terrain & deeper conditions), developing and holding the CA (it definitely get's away from me), and clearly my fore/aft was challenged a few times - so a stronger pull back move at each transition.

These are the easy observations though. I think it would be especially beneficial to me (even though my intention wasn't for MA) to look at particular turns in the sequence and discuss where things went wrong (or even where things went right). But let's keep this in the vein of this thread - what can be done to better handle off-piste skiing conditions through application of the essentials?

Max_501 - would you happen to have any video from your posted photos?

BTW - I should note that at the point this video was taken during camp week I certainly had not "assimilated" the new movements we were working on. In fact, I would say that I wasn't really getting it (truly "sunk in") until a couple weeks later after spending time fully digesting my take-aways from camp. I'm looking forward to getting some new video next week.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby Max_501 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:42 pm

All I have is the high speed photo sequences. But the video I linked above has great examples of everything discussed in this thread.

HighAngles wrote:... but clearly I could have benefited from stronger tipping (exhausting the tipping range with the lower body first)


Edit - The only tipping we do is at the lower body. Unless you are thinking of upper body CB (counter tipping). But that happens in conjunction with tipping movements initiated by the feet.

So, tip from the feet, and keep on tipping the inside foot. Don't ever stop. Inside foot tipping isn't exhausted until your hip is on the snow. The upper body gets inside as a function of tipping the inside foot. And with off piste skiing flexing and tipping should happen as close to simultaneous as you can get them.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby HighAngles » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:01 pm

Yes, thanks for the clarification on correct tipping. The way you describe it is the way I'm thinking of it, but I didn't express it correctly with what I wrote. My current personal focus is to achieve my higher edge angles as "fully" as possible through tipping while I'm still OVER my skis; BEFORE letting my upper body drop into the inside of the turn. This really is a huge change for my skiing. It's also the answer I was seeking for why I wasn't able to speed up the rhythm of my turns without falling apart. I guess 30 years of getting my edge angles through "diving" my body into the inside of the turn is harder to unlearn than I would have thought. Of course first I had to have the realization that I still was achieving my edge angles with some "cheating".

The other essential (which just happens to be incredibly important to tipping) is sufficient flexing for the intended turn, speed, and terrain. I always feel (there's that "feeling" thing again :wink: ) that I'm flexing deeply and then I see my video and it never looks nearly as much as what I felt. What I've really come to understand this season is that the more I flex, the better I ski - surprise, surprise. :mrgreen:
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby BigE » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:28 am

Max_501 wrote:So, tip from the feet, and keep on tipping the inside foot. Don't ever stop. Inside foot tipping isn't exhausted until your hip is on the snow. The upper body gets inside as a function of tipping the inside foot. And with off piste skiing flexing and tipping should happen as close to simultaneous as you can get them.


Hi Max,

I thought it was momentum from the previous turn that carried the body across the skis that got the skir inside?

The introduction to the instructors manual says as much in the section about the phantom move. Or have I misread/misunderstood again?
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby BigE » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:29 am

Max_501 wrote:So, tip from the feet, and keep on tipping the inside foot. Don't ever stop. Inside foot tipping isn't exhausted until your hip is on the snow. The upper body gets inside as a function of tipping the inside foot. And with off piste skiing flexing and tipping should happen as close to simultaneous as you can get them.


Hi Max,

I thought it was momentum from the previous turn that carried the body across the skis that got the skier inside? And that movement across the skis was started by flexing...

The introduction to the instructors manual says as much in the section about the phantom move. Or have I misread/misunderstood again?
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby h.harb » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:15 am

BigE, don't try to analyze PMTS, just do what is written. You are just making everything so over complicated and confusing yourself. It's above your pay-grade to keep trying to make your own assumptions and interpretations. At your level just copy and do.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby BigE » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:34 am

OK, I wiill keep it very simple. No physics.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby h.harb » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:40 am

Well said, just remember the famous Mark Twain quote: "removing all doubt"

Physics doesn't make movements or good skiing. Just look at Ron LeaMaster, he talks physics all the time, can't ski and he's very confused, but his Bulls--t baffles brains, just check out how often they quote him on Epic.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby Max_501 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:51 am

BigE, Obviously momentum plays a big role in off piste skiing (see my float and sting post). With PMTS Harald has created a system that makes it easy to harness momentum. Its built right into the system so we don't have to think about it. Instead we focus on mastering the movements.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby BigE » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:54 am

Agreed Harald.

Max,

I will endeavour to own these movements. I have to unlearn basically everything that I was taught starting with stance width and balance. I hope to post a reasonable video of starting and finishing an arc on one foot this weekend. I am certain I skied better when I was untrained. I shall look for old video.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby cheesehead » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:22 pm

Flex to release, pullback, tip. Phantom move. Thinking about moving your body across the skis is not only unnecessary but also usually leads to rotation, wedging, hip dumping, etc.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby dbillo » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:19 pm

Max_501 wrote:All I have is the high speed photo sequences...

BTW, kudos to your photographer! Great shots!
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby jbotti » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:26 pm

Max_501 wrote:BigE, Obviously momentum plays a big role in off piste skiing (see my float and sting post). With PMTS Harald has created a system that makes it easy to harness momentum. Its built right into the system so we don't have to think about it. Instead we focus on mastering the movements.


I can say that I have honestly done whatever Harald and Diana have told me with skiing since day one. I never once asked whether it was correct or why they were asking me to make these movements. Harald even had me doing pivot slips once (to open up the movement of my hips) and I know that he hates pivot slips and hates what it produces in people's skiing. But I knew that he had a great reason for asking me to do them, and it worked.

As Max has been saying and proving wth his skiing for years, the progression works. Start at ACBES1 and do all the exercises, then do the same with book two. Along the way get to camps and get personalized instruction and feedback on doing the movements correctly and get your alignment dialed in. Have friends shoot video of you and do your own MA and/or have others with better trained eye on the forum help you with the MA. Lastly do the drills religously and correctly and you will become a better skier than you ever dreamed was possible for yourself.

There is only one problem. I am already a much better skier than I ever thought that I could become. But I still want to ski like Max, Harald and Diana.

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