Off piste - technique and tactics

[Max_501]

What I realized is that in my pursuit of higher edge angles I was rushing to get my upper body inside of the turn and that was defeating my CB and leaving me with more inclination instead of angulation (upper/lower body separation).

PMTS skiers shouldn't focus on getting their upper body inside. That should be a result of proper Essentials.

[h.harb]

Miles, I definitely use more CA in heavy deep old crud for short turns especially. The release of the legs with more CA, gets you on the new edges sooner with less energy. When you see all that arm swinging and upper body rotation in skiers, the stuff that puts you upside down in powder, that's from lack of CA, and flexing.

CA in crud bumps


CA in steeps and crud.



CA in Powder

[h.harb]

I love it when I hear Doug Lewis say, on TV, during a WC slalom run, "Look at how he gets his feet out to the side." This is so much BS, no WC skier is getting or moving their feet to the side. Move your feet to the side out from under you is another myth perpetuated by poor coaches.

The answer is the skis need to be angled, edged, tipped, and as soon as some grip is achieved, the inside leg can be flexed and shortened, which gets the body inside, not the feet to the outside.
Never try to develop big angles starting with your upper body, a sure way to disaster. Proper lower body Essentials develop big angles.

[HighAngles]

Never try to develop big angles starting with your upper body, a sure way to disaster. Proper lower body Essentials develop big angles.

That's what finally is clicking for me over the past couple days. It's funny how you can "hear" things over and over in PMTS and think you understand what you're supposed to be doing, but it's only through consistent work in the essentials that you really progress.

[HighAngles]

PMTS skiers shouldn't focus on getting their upper body inside. That should be a result of proper Essentials.

I guess I can be a PMTS skier now?

[NoCleverName]

If I understand you right you are looking for more even foot to foot weighting in off piste skiing? Why?

Because, ... because, ..., well, in the majority of cases I'm pretty deep into somewhat heavier snow then you have out west and I need more support I guess. All equipped, I'm probably 220 lbs on those 170cm 66mm TT800's. A single 90% weighted ski gets pretty stuck when the snow is around 8:1. I notice on most of the "off-piste" photos the skis are pretty much on top of the snow. Mine are totally under it. I'm always going to the bottom on anything under 12-14 inches ... sometimes deeper.

I guess I also like the feeling of a nice double-footed powder ride.

I reflection, I think what happens during a normal weight transfer/flex-to-release in the deep-heavy is that the old stance ski now wants to continue in a straight line. The force of the snow in which it is buried is greater than I can override with tipping action, so tipping is ineffective. So I tip the old stance ski (weighted release) as I can maintain directional control over it. Maybe not explained well, but I'm absolutely not going to "hup hup" to get out of the trap. Once I'm over to the other side I can then pick up the weight on the new stance ski. Well, really I think I transfer weight during the transition ... I don't carry the weighted release much past transition.

For lighter conditions the phantom with a slight tail lift during the pullback works good.

[Max_501]

I think what happens during a normal weight transfer/flex-to-release in the deep-heavy is that the old stance ski now wants to continue in a straight line.

Without video we don't know what you are doing but the skis should come to the surface during the release.

I notice on most of the "off-piste" photos the skis are pretty much on top of the snow. Mine are totally under it. I'm always going to the bottom on anything under 12-14 inches ... sometimes deeper.

You seem to equate skiing off piste with skiing pow. However, an off piste skier will spend only a small percentage of time in pow because it gets tracked up and packed out so quickly.

[Skiasaurus Rex]

NoCleverName,

You are 220 lbs, skiing on 170cm 66mm waisted ski and you are wondering why you sink in powder and deep crud?

Truth is, you need a certain amount of speed to get those skis to float or to make the most out of rebound from flexing to get them to release and rise in deeper, heavier snow. However, in the East, you sometimes don't have the 'room' to run those skis as fast as you'd like to get the performance you want in deeper snow. Perhaps others here can instruct you on how to get more comfortable with speed to get the desired off piste performance on those skis. Open ended question: Would he need a more aggressive flex to get the release necessary with narrower skis?

Not saying you need a huge ski, that's up to you, but you probably need a little more speed with the skis you are using in the conditions you are describing. The pictures of Max101 he is on a 95mm waisted ski, probably longer than 170cm and I don't think he weighs 220 lbs. Though, I can't be sure from a picture.

[Max_501]

Perhaps others here can instruct you on how to get more comfortable with speed to get the desired off piste performance on those skis.

Master the Essentials. That said, on shallow slopes covered in deep dense snow a short narrow ski isn't going to work well because you can't get enough speed to blast through the glop.

Open ended question: Would he need a more aggressive flex to get the release necessary with narrower skis?

More aggressive than skiing on groomers? Yes. More aggressive than skiing dense sierra cement? Probably not. You need whatever it takes to get the skis out of the snow. The more momentum you have the less muscular effort required.

[Max_501]

Learn to ski within a narrow corridor, moving from one turn to the next without traversing (which bleeds energy developed from the turn).

[h.harb]

Skiing steep runs on fairly packed snow requires more flexing skills. As you see on almost every turn to keep speed control, I'm trying to engage a high "C" ski angle. However, because of the speed and rebound pressure, it is hard to develop angle and pressure before the falline or even in the falline. It's like skiing a steep slalom, you have to keep the arc round and the skis angled or you pick up speed really fast. If you extend, sure you gain some time at the point of extension; however you then have to twist the ski into the falline, which makes them accelerate immediately. So that just causes a different set of problems, like hard hits and balance issues.

[h.harb]

NoCleverName,

You are 220 lbs, skiing on 170cm 66mm waisted ski and you are wondering why you sink in powder and deep crud?

Yes, I can ski my 170cm, TT 800 in 1 foot deep powder on steep, like in the Performance Skiing DVD, but I'm using speed to create float. I do not however try for more than 90/10 weight distribution from one ski to the other in the arc. I do go 50/50 in the transition, two footed release in powder basically.

If I ski powder on wider skis I end up more on top of the snow, which I didn't like, I like to be in deep, in powder, during the arc and come to the top in transition.

Here are three photos demonstrating what I'm describing. Float, skis deep in the snow, release (skis to the top) and even rebound in powder.



It's fairly steep here and I got some great rebound, so the prep for the next arc, is done in the air, and completed before I hit the snow, hopefully!

In the arc and tipped in powder allows you to let the skis move forward, tips are up already. The two photos are from the same turn, notice how easily my skis came to the surface and then back down into the powder.

This is just after the release and equally weighted skis come to the top for easy tipping. (or should I have said equally unweighted skis) I never try to change ski direction in powder. Flexing and tipping is the answer. People who don't know how to ski, perpetuate their own kind of skiing by trying to teach pivoting and steering.

[NoCleverName]

NoCleverName,

You are 220 lbs, skiing on 170cm 66mm waisted ski and you are wondering why you sink in powder and deep crud?

No I do not. First, I'm too cheap to get wider skis for which there is limited use out here ... or back here, whatever the phrase. And, second, it's a matter of pride to make SOME combination of PMTS skills (of which I have a small set) overcome conditions that others solve by using hardware. I was just wondering if this was a valid mode of attack given all these circumstances.

Imagine, if you will, near Sierra cement that's been chopped already (light blue slope). The last time we had that a couple of weeks ago I thought my feet were about to be torn off my ankles! Good thing we are slated for 14 or so of reasonable pow tomorrow. "Normal" crud that more or less explodes on impact is not a problem. It's the stuff that fights back I am concerned with.

[h.harb]

The last time we had that a couple of weeks ago I thought my feet were about to be torn off my ankles!

I've skied at Alpine and Squaw in those very conditions, first you need speed and you can't use upper body rotation (forces) in that stuff or you are dead. Many all mountain skiers follow with upper body rotation in cement, but they use flexing and angles to generate the arc, so don't be fooled. If you want to see it, from a PMTS technical point of view, the best all mountain skier is Seth Morrison.

You have to have the chops to get some tip pressure to engage even in cement. If you back off the ski too early it will go straight and that's trouble. When it goes straight most skiers throw their shoulders and upper body at the turn, and they end up upside down. All Essentials and PMTS movements apply to become a really good skier in cement, and it's not easy, you do take your lumps while learning. It takes me a half day to get the hang of it after I've been away. The first few runs I'm hacking away to figure it out and find my balance in that stuff. If you ski it all the time it's actually fun, and never lacks for excitement.

[Max_501]

"Normal" crud that more or less explodes on impact is not a problem. It's the stuff that fights back I am concerned with.

Sounds like you are skiing too slow for the combination of ski width, slope, and snow density.