Off piste - technique and tactics

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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby h.harb » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:50 pm

Don't limit yourself, learn to use both, just learning to control leg flex and pressure will make you a better skier. The TFR and the OFR and everything in-between are good for your skiing. It's not black and white, there is plenty of grey here to work with.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby h.harb » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:05 am

What skiers don't realize is that just going from one footed in the turn to two footed during the release, or vice-versa, are expert movements. It takes practice, but it also develops your overall skills. Don't try to categorize these skills like one footed in powder or a weight release, as isolated methods or certain snow or terrain, they can be used in the same run, anywhere. Sure, I have separated them out in my books and videos, to identify different approaches, but they are not different techniques, they are more like variations of leg flexing and extending.

Versatility with any of these combinations is important in off piste skiing. You should use different releases by adjusting which leg you flex more and which leg you flex first. Be prepared to try one variation to the other, during a groomed run. Use the different releases in skiing any run, but bottom line is; they can be mixed into any run. I see to much, "either/or, stuff" or "which is better for me, being digested or suggested or relied upon.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby jbotti » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:27 am

I have been surprised when people talk about releases that they use in certain conditions. I practice all the releases on groomed terrain (and off piste in easier conditions) and continue to try and perfect them and have them at my dispoasl for all of my skiing. I don't know about anyone else but in steep tough off piste conditions, the terrain is coming at me much faster than I can decide on which release to use. I often notice afterwards while watching video, that I used a variety of different releases dictated by the terrain and by the way I am skiing it. Almost always when I see a weighted release where the stance leg is not on the snow I am very pleased that I have practiced these ad nauseum on groomed terrain as without it at that moment I would likley have eaten it.

I think having different releases at our disposal are just additioal weapons in gravitational warfare, and we all know how gravitational warfare goes whitout the proper weapons!!
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby arothafel » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:24 pm

Some of this conversation sounds the same as "positions" vs. "movements." As jbotti points out, things are happening pretty quickly. So, aren't your releases constantly adjusting to the turn, terrain, arc, speed, etc... ?
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby Bonz » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:01 pm

h.harb wrote:Many will say, " a skier is sitting back" in Off Piste skiing. Not the case, at times you have to let the skis go on steeps and in crud, (flex and let go) so you can tip the skis without pressure on them. If you know you can let go and keep tipping, you will be right back into a good controlled arc that will keep your speed in check. This takes practice on medium slopes in powder or deep crud. No one ever learned this by going to the top of "High Rustler" to learn it.


Does "letting the skis run" in off piste/powder put more strain on the quads? Im very inexperienced in off piste skiing, and a PMTS novice(1 camp). I had a chance to ski those conditions more last week than ever before and my quads were on fire quite a bit.
I was suspecting, 1. My technique was really bad(back seat skiing). or 2. My boots may have me out of fore/aft balance. 3. Im just not used to skiing powder/off pistes/chop/soft bumps etc and my legs were paying for it...

was fun none the less, and always tried to think about the proper movements while skiing, although i know i have a long way to go.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby h.harb » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:28 pm

Conditioning is definitely a factor, but the wrong way to let the skis go is to stay in the back seat too long. The letting go I'm talking about lasts for only a 1/4 second (and you are not hanging off your boots) and you should be right back over them.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby Bonz » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:07 pm

thanks HH..im sure its a technique issue, and certainly some conditioning. ive gotten 12 days on snow this season which is the most ever for me...which is nothing for most people here.

i can say that since attending a pmts camp last year, that my enjoyment of the sport has increased exponentially, and im skiing things i was terrified of a year ago, even though i know i dont have even a fraction of the knowledge/ability that most here have..
..and just to add to that...it started the first day after green camp last year when i went to Winter Park the day after the Sol Vista camp. I was able to ski slopes i never would have tried before. My confidence grew from there, and ive pushed myself more. I know my technique is still flawed, but i hope to get back to a camp to improve that aspect which i know will give me even more confidence...
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby Max_501 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:48 pm

Another component of off piste skiing is flex + pullback + tipping during the release. Harald is a master of this. The good news is that doing the drills produces solid results.

Image
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby h.harb » Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:34 pm

There is not a fine line between sitting too far back and flexing and retracting. They are totally different. Max is flexing, and pulling his feet back and retracting. You will not learn this form a PSIA instructor. PMTS teaches the highest level skiers, and the best possible technique for beginners. And we never stop improving the system, what you may have learned 5 years ago, is already much better now. PSIA is doing the same thing they have always done for the last 25 years and it still doesn't work.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby h.harb » Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:40 pm

I think this one is a Gem!

What skiers don't realize is that just going from one footed in the turn to two footed during the release, or vice-versa, are expert movements. It takes practice, but it also develops your overall skills. Don't try to categorize these skills like one footed in powder or a weight release, as isolated methods for certain snow or terrain; they can be used in the same run, anywhere. Sure, I have separated them out in my books and videos, to identify different approaches, but they are not different techniques, they are more like variations of leg flexing, absorbing and extending. Absorbing is a lost art in skiing.

Versatility with any of these combinations of foot weighting is important in off piste skiing. You should use different releases by adjusting which leg you flex more and which leg you flex first. Be prepared to try one variation to the other, during a groomed run to practice and become familiar. No one ever became great by practicing only one dogmatic method for skiing. Just watch PSIA nothing works there. Use the different releases in skiing on any run, but bottom line is; they can be mixed into any run. I see to much, "either/or, stuff" or "which is better for me, being digested or suggested or relied upon.


Often I find the most important posts are neglected because skiers don't read deeply into them. Well, here is one post you should really digest. I wish we had some features on the forum like stars and "likes', I'd use it here!
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby HighAngles » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:16 pm

I had the good fortune to spend a day skiing with Max_501 and JBotti last week. What I experienced on that day clearly showed me that PMTS movements work incredibly well in off-piste conditions if you have truly mastered them and "own" them to a high degree. I do not yet own PMTS movements in off-piste conditions so I still have much work ahead of me...
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby MonsterMan » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:51 pm

Max501: nice O Frames in that last series of four photos, were you skiing fast?
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby Max_501 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:01 pm

MonsterMan wrote:Max501: nice O Frames in that last series of four photos, were you skiing fast?


Fast enough to create the float/sting which allows the skis to blast through the snow. I don't recall thinking that I was going fast, rather just fast enough to deal with the snow conditions. I'm typically looking for the speed that makes it easy to release. Jbotti or HighAngles could give a better relative answer.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby jbotti » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:51 pm

Yes, reasonably fast.

Probably a good time to talk again about what Harald calls terminal velocity. This is the pace at which we will go no faster as long as we keep the same tempo on our short radius turns. For most the pace at which Max is skiing will be somewhat uncomfortable. He is so used to this pace and knows that he will never pick up speed because his SRT's are tight and constant that he doesn't experience that he is going fast. This is also the pace at which more difficult snow (crud, chop, chowder etc) needs to skied as it produced maximum energy out of each turn which is necessary in more difficult snow.

What is requires is a bullet proof SRT and perfectly dialed in fore aft balance the whole way. Max makes it look easy.

Just to put fast in the proper perspective, Max is never hitting speeds that someone might that is making Super G turns down a steep ridge. The skill level required to do what Max is doing is about 10X what t takes (besides mega balls) to ski SG turns down a steep ridge.
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Re: Off piste - technique and tactics

Postby MonsterMan » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:40 pm

Thanks JBotti, how might one attempt to build towards terminal velocity? or is it all in or nothing?
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