Understanding PMTS

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Understanding PMTS

Postby Tommi » Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:29 pm

This is written purely IMHO. This is not supposed to be against anyone, this is just a thought:

I have spent some evenings reading various posts on Epic and here as well. I do not fully understand the flaming between various groups arguing which technique is the best. To me, it's waste of time and energy. Very often, the level of arguments seems to be surprisingly low.

After having read lots of these threads I must say that it seems that very few people except persons really familiar with PMTS seem to understand the 'physics' of PMTS. Harald, i'm afraid many of these people just do not really understand you .. I do not mean that your text wasn't very well written nor do I mean that the readers are just stipid.

I think it really requires a LOT of technical thinking ability and/or capability of 'imagining the skis and the skier's body in 3D dynamic situation' which is definitely not easy. (sorry for my bad english, hard to express my point here). The bottom line is that it can be hard to believe the benefits of technique like PMTS or racing, if you do not fully understand the mechanisms and the forces.

Actually this came to my mind after having read again and again some parts of book #2, namely releasing. It is not very simple stuff.. It's very well written, and i should have the capability (BSC EE, commercial/aerobatic pilot etc.). Maybe i'll get it all together after reading the books approx 20 times ;-)

Actually reading it 20 times would not be so much, if we consider the time it has taken Harald to learn and figure out skiing on the level that is described in the books.

Am I completely lost with this idea or ..

Just my 0.02 eur worth..

Have fun,

TommI
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Postby milesb » Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:36 pm

Tommi, I actually have an opposite experience, that in no way invalidates what you are saying. The more I use PMTS technique, the more I appreciate the simplicity of it. As SCSA said long ago, it is all about balance. Now with his severe attention deficit disorder :), he neglected or was unable to really explain what that means. Basically its that the movements are designed to allow you to naturally balance on a tipped ski. You don't have to "find" balance, it is just there. This has allowed me to do things that some don't think are possible, such as carving the top of short radius turns on a 40 degree slope, while easily maintaining a reasonable speed (it's still not for the faint of heart!) If I'm skiing bumps, and remembering to do the PMTS stuff, it's almost effortless. Until I get to a spot where I feel I have to do some other kind of movement (I probably DON'T have to), then I have to actively find the balance.
Look at the simple tip Harald gave WTFH, complete with the logic behind it. Compare that with what he got on Epicski. The tips there were mostly band-aids to fix what most of the Realskier.com regular posters saw as the real issue. Which was balance! Notice how almost everyone here mentioned "balance", even though they had some seemingly different but actually similiar ways for him to get it right. On Epic, only 2 people mentioned balance, and neither one got it right about how to use the body's natural balance mechanism, although one came very close. And he wasn't an instructor! And several even told him not to worry about improving, when he made it very plain that it was important to him to work on just ONE thing next week. Like it's going to kill his fun to work on ONE thing between Guinesses!
Now that's not to say that some of the Epic advice wouldn't help him AFTER he does what Harald said.
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Postby tommy » Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:09 pm

I agree with miles. PMTS, as a teaching system, has some of the most important characteristics of any system designed for "creating a desired, quality outcome", for instance:

- simplicity (keep the key concepts as simple and as few as possible)
- well defined terminology
- no "semantic gaps" (no discontinuities, things to be unlearned at a later stage, or things that are done in a totally different way in different situations/conditions)
- well connected to underlying principles (biomechanics, physics, technology)

I can't help but seeing the parallel to a similar "coherent system" in my other life, where very many of the worlds most complex software systems are analyzed, designed and even implemented with a "systematic approach" that at highest level basically only provides 3 items: "things, relationships, diagrams". Very simple, yet extreamly powerful.

I've personally learned to appreciate PMTS in several ways, not only by attending camps, but also by reading the books (at least 20 times... ;-) , watching the videos, and last but not least, the discussions on this forum: PMTS, adhering to the principles above, allows very unambiquos written and verbal communication, which I've perused to improve my skiing a lot the past years.

cheers,
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Postby Tommi » Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:12 pm

Yep. I fully agree with you. The movements are simple, and easy to grasp. However, the resulting movements and the physics of skiing is not.

My point was that maybe many of these persons so strongly against PMTS have not tried the moves or they haven't understood the benefits from written explanations.

For me (with my limitations) it has helped a lot. Moreover, as I am a perfectionist and almost always have a need to understand the whole process when learning (I have competition background in several disciplines), PMTS logic works, even the theoretical explanations, exceptionally well.

The flaming remains a mystery to me..

Have fun,

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Postby tommy » Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:38 am

Tommi,

I think the flaming is mainly caused by clashing personalities, much more than by the actual technical issues.

Harald sometimes puts his views when writing in very direct, "not-so-diplomatic" ways, and "sensitive" souls might take offense.

Secondly, if you browse old Epic postings, there's been quite a lot of "logs thrown into the fire" by some very vocal, very enthusiastic, and not so diplomatic, PMTS followers (hi *SCSA! ;-)

Third, whenever "the establishment" is challenged with new ways of thinking, there is a lot of inertia. Many people have cemented their views of things, and challenging or changing those views does not come easily.

It's interesting to see how little discussion/opposition/flaming there is to Lito's and DesLauriers (sp ?) teachings, even though they pretty much teach the same things as Harald does.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure that if some of the most vocal PMTS and TTS skiers actually got together skiing & talking, face to face (or butt to butt - in the lifts! :-), most of the flaming would probably go away. As efficient and convenient internet based comm's can be, the downside is that the "bandwidth" doesn't come anywhere near that of "face-to-face" discussions. Misunderstandings and misinterpretations are far too common, and the Mr. Hyde that exists in all of us tends to get much more room in internet based comms. Social skills often seem to vanish when talking on the net.

cheers,
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Postby *SCSA » Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:08 am

Good morning,

You buncha he/she/its. :)

I think it comes down to this. It just takes motivation and desire, to ski well. You gotta want, to ski well. It takes time, I guess it takes money :wink: , you have to stay in pretty good shape. 97% of all skiers just won't make the cut, for any number of reasons.

The other 3% or less, are starting to learn about PMTS -- Harvard -- that's why there's so few of us.

The resentment towards PMTS over at gapic? Harald lit the flame, by basically calling the ski instruction thang what it really is. epic is gang member central, so naturally their panties got in a wad. Then I poured gas on it and started a barn fire, when I showed up. :lol:

As far as their understanding of PMTS, it is nill. I have met only one person, Powdigger, who really understood it. Miles gets it, but we haven't met -- yet (I'd love to make some turns with he/she/it). The rest are clueless at best. Some of them have read some of Harald's stuff. But as soon as they got to the part where Harald says traditional ski instruction sucks, they burned it and posted on gapic that PMTS sucks. :lol:

They all think, as does most familiar with PMTS, that it's "Harald's system", or that is proprietary. I think that's only half true. I think of PMTS as two thangs:
1) skiing in it's purest form ("...an expert skier")
2) how to get there in the shortest amount of time ("Anyone can be...")

Harald put together "how to get there together in the shortest amount of time", that he did. It was his vision, it all tracks back to him, he owns it. PMTS and what you get from Harald and company, is everything you need to get there in the shortest amount of time. That for sure, is proprietary.

But skiing in it's purest form however, is in no way proprietary. No one, owns that. It's simply the goal of every "motivated skier" (this new term we seem to have coined). Add to this, where does PMTS start and end? With balance. Skiing is all about balance. If you can balance on your edges, the mountain -- all of the mountain -- is yours.

I hope I'm gettin this is right. Because I'm gettin tired, of explaining this stuff. :wink:
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Postby *SCSA » Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:30 am

One more thang for the he/she/its, then I'm outta here. Making turns @ the Big Show today, after getting (this is for my oldest pal Rusty_GadFly) milk @ Snowmass yesterday. :D

What does PMTS teach, whadda get? Balance. You learn to balance on your edges.

Is that proprietary?

I don't theeeeeeeeeeeenk so.

y'all have a good one. I'll be reporting from the National Convention, next Monday. :D
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An excellent discussion of PMTS vs PSIA...

Postby tommy » Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:34 am

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Postby Ott Gangl » Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:42 pm

So the jist is that nothing prevents PMTS being taught under the PSIA umbrella. So may ski schols and instructors will just incorporate some or all of PMTS and teach it when they deem appropriate.

....Ott
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Not that simple Ott

Postby John Mason » Sat Jan 01, 2005 9:24 pm

At the instructor camp I was at in November I heard lots of stories from individuals that mean that at many places if PMTS is taught or incorporated you have to be very cautious about it.

Some places will fire you if you stray. So, while the PSIA umbrella says it's a big umbrella, depending on where you are and sometimes which resort your at, you don't actually have a lot of freedom to teach PMTS.

My first PMTS lesson which was at Breckenridge could only be taught to me by the PMTS instructor because I specifically hired him for a private. He told me he was not allowed to follow the PMTS progression in the non-private lessons.

SCSA has other stories that are similar.

Yet, I think that's what will happen over time. Enough people will learn PMTS and start teaching it where they can that more places will informally adopt it as the PMTS mene gets more out there. I believe Pierre is in this situation and is at a resort that does DTP more or less like PMTS.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:03 pm

>>> I believe Pierre is in this situation and is at a resort that does DTP more or less like PMTS.<<<

That's right, they just don't ever mention or call it PMTS. I don't know where you get the story that a resort will fire someone who teaches direct parallel the PMTS way but just calls it his/her own way of teaching. If the customer is satisfied the resort is happy. When an instructor is out with his/her group there is no one monitoring him/her unless it is an apprentice instructor. As Arcmeister said, he teaches the student, not any system.

....Ott
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the "story"

Postby John Mason » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:49 pm

the story was told to me 1st hand by the Breck instructor

If he wanted to teach dtp to a group - say a beginner group - he cannot. He must do the normal level 1 through 9 psia progression starting with the wedge. He is not allowed to deviate.

There is no way to deviate "in secret" since the beginner - bunny slopes - are where all the beginning instruction occurs.

As I said - with a private lesson or even a private lesson with a like minded group - he can teach whatever he wants. But the biggest difference in instruction where PMTS can have an impact for the most people is the true beginners. Yet that setting is where he can not deviate as much as he would like to.

Oh, I'll be talking with whomever I can this week about co-contraction and active adoption. I think this is the missing link for the "rotators" to actually understand how things like bump skiing can be done with PMTS movements without active rotation even though it's clear to see rotation occurs. It's back to my analogy with the elbow lock. Or, how can a fine muscle group like your foot be used to control some of the largest muscles in the body like your hip rotators to give the skier fine motor control to create any rotation effect needed using PMTS movement patterns. It's clear these occur and they are all over the books and videos whenever rotation or a path is done shorter then the radius of the skis. All PMTS'er's experience this but know they are not steering. Active adoption is the key. (which I'm currently making up the term, but it - to me at least - has been a missing link in my own understanding of the explantions. - loose adoption isn't enough to explain what happens. That's passive alignment under relaxation. But lots of time in PMTS you have alignment of the stance leg occuring in an un-relaxed state like when you tip more on the inside foot to tighten a carved turn.

Fine motor control on your hip rotators though indirect active adoption that occurs when you disturb the state of a or a set of co-contracted joints. Or why the phantom move works specifically without any "black box" components to the explaination.

(Greg - I'll show you a vid of tracks of a PMTS hockey stop I did that shows this type of rotation - I just finally analyzed and believe I have figured out how this can occur (of course it's the phantom move - but I never understood how this affects the stance leg - that is the why of it))
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Arc can do that there

Postby John Mason » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:56 pm

Ott Gangl wrote:As Arcmeister said, he teaches the student, not any system

....Ott


I believe arc is in charge of the ski school where he is. Thus he has freedom.

PMTS instructors also teach the student. The PMTS "system" is not a locked in progression but the student in analyzed for their SMIM to determing what type of lesson plan to come up with to address the SMIM. Thankfully, the PMTS system runs the gamut of many SMIM situations providing helpful tools and drills for the student to work with.

Over on Epic I responded to a poster that thought PMTS was only about fully weighting the outside foot. The reality is multiple releases are taught in PMTS that all have their uses and the inside foot can be unweighted at transition as in the super phantom or fully weighted as in the weighted release. PMTS is not a narrow system either. But it is consistent in it's movement patterns and as a complete system doesn't have gaps or situations where there is no way to teach the student. (like eski's hop turns in a chute which use the phantom move and "loose adoption" to set up the body for the landing)
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Postby *SCSA » Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:29 am

Yawn.
Shut the fluck up and ski.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:11 am

Happy New Year to you too, SCSA... :lol:

....Ott
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