HSS and PMTS growth

PMTS Forum

Guest - lack of logic

Postby John Mason » Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:45 pm

your comments have nothing to do with the wedge/no wedge argument

many of the PMTS skiers around the country started with the wedge - got stuck at intermediate - took up PMTS to get to advanced

they express anything ranging from disgust to dissapointment at all the time the wedge progression wasted

on to another reason

shaped skis - shaped skis turn when edged

the old straight skis turned when edged and bent

(now no nitpicking - I know straight skis always had a slight shape to them - but my two statements above are factual)

the wedge progression is from the era of straight skis when a beginner could not pressure a ski to bend it and carve a turn

In the day of shaped skis, the wedge creates pressure on the knees and faces the beginner with the constant prospect of their tips crossing. The old straight skis did not try to turn when edged like the shaped skis do.

The wedge is the single largest factor in the bad skier retention figures. Skiers try a first lesson to see if they like skiing. They complain about the knee pain the wedge produces and hang it up.

Get rid of the wedge and skier retention will climb.

In my two family members case who tried skiing the year before I started skiing the wedge and the lack of control this made them feel, the pain this caused in their knees and the falling from crossing their tips were the specific reason they both decided to never ski again.

When I started skiing a year later, I too had a wedge lesson. By the 4th day out I had stopped doing it and discovered a variation on PMTS that turned me easily without the wedge. It wasn't pretty but anything was better than the wedge. (I being more stubborn than my other two family members)

Get rid of the wedge and I predict objectively measured retention numbers will climb (and by retention we are not talking about people that take another lesson but people that simply continue to ski at all (this seems to be missed by folks on Epic)). Increase this retention number and the whole ski industry benefits because the number of skiers will sky rocket. (oh, but Gonzostrike won't like that because the slopes will have more people on them ..... or maybe more ski resorts will be profitable to build and open - duh!)
John Mason
 
Posts: 1050
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Location: Lafayette, Indiana, USA

It isn't really the wedge that they reject

Postby Jim Ratliff » Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:37 pm

Seems to me that the focus ofPMTS instruction is establishing progressions where additional skills are built on already learned skills and movement patterns.

What PMTS therefore rejects are skills (??) that are 'counter productive' and aren't part of a foundation that the skier can continually build upon. Two examples of this are the wedge and a wide stance. The wedge is a visible symptom of the problem, but the problem is that the wedge soon needs to be 'unlearned' in order for the skill level to build.

Of course, all of the stuff Joseph said is also true.

It would be like letting my right-handed two-year old learn to throw the ball stepping forward with his right foot (which is natural), knowing that when he turned 10 I would have to make him unlearn that pattern and learn to throw while leading with his left foot because that provides better control and velocity. Hard to unlearn skills once the muscle memory has them stored.

PS to guest. I will guarantee that there are major league pitchers who at some point in their life threw with the wrong foot forward. The difference is that the 'better' way is much more widely known and parents teach the 'right' way at an early age.
Jim Ratliff
 

Postby *SCSA » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:51 am

Yesterday @ Snowmass, every beginner class I was able to watch was practicing wedge turns. I watched one woman, who was athletic looking, coming down the hill in a wedge, while her instructor praised her turns. I could see the woman's knees shaking through her ski pants, while she was coming down the hill. My knees got sore just watching her.

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

Harvard asks why isn't PMTS more popular? Harvard, you're not as smart as your name. If you were, you'd have done your homework.

Well, let's start with the fact that the ski business has set it up so that a competitive ski teaching product can't be offered. The ski business is setup around PSIA. That's how it's always been, that's how it'll probably always be.

Then, there's the forest service rule which says that in order to have a ski area permit, there can only be 1 ski school desk. That's why you can't walk into a ski area and have competitive choices for a retail ski lesson. It's PSIA or no way.

Then, and no ski school director will ever admit it, most ski school directors will fire any instructor caught teaching PMTS. Why? Because it takes away revenue. Why should a skier continue to take lessons @ 500 bucks a day when they can buy two books and two videos that shows them everything they need to ski well for a grand total of $79.90 with tax? From there, there's a website devoted to PMTS, it's free too. They can show up and ski with me, for free. Someone will now undoubtedly chime in and claim "BS, SCSA, we're free to teach whatever we want." Whooey. I know of one area in particular, where if an instructor is caught teaching or promoting PMTS in any way, they're fired.

Hey Harvard. Do you ever wonder why Harald has never been in Ski Magazine? Not once, Harvard. Here's what I think. Because the editors of Ski Magazine are PSIA types and they don't like Harald. If they did do an article on him, more skiers would find out about him and that wouldn't be good for their big money advertisers. C'mon, Harvard. PMTS has sold thousands of books and videos, it's # 1 in it's class. It's been the talk of the Internet for years now. You tell me why, Harvard, not one article has been written about him in Ski Magazine? Not one! Meanwhile, Ski writes lengthy articles about the best ski car to buy or how to get laid while on vacation skiing. What a bunch of crapola.

I used to tell others on the lift about PMTS. Now, I don't. I only tell my friends. Why? Because if I was to tell another skier about PMTS and they then cancelled their ski lesson, I could lose my pass for "Theft of Services". The ski business is so f'd up that if I save someone from a lousy lesson, turn them onto a good lesson, I could lose my pass. Never mind that the skier ended up skiing more as a result of my recommendation. In other words, I can ride the lift and ski, that's fine. But if I tell someone about how to get a better ski lesson and enjoy the sport more, I could lose my pass.

Harvard, you're trying to make this into a study, it's not that hard. You want to know why PMTS isn't as popular as you think it should be? Because the ski business is mostly lead by knuckleheads and the good ole boys club. When they die, we may see some changes. But probably not until then.
*SCSA
 

Postby Joseph » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:55 am

What people who still question direct to parallel lack, is the ability and understanding of how to teach without the wedge. It seems that the students are not the only beginners who become bound to such useless and outdated skills. Just like skiing, once you learn to ski without it, you will never go back. The same goes for teaching, as soon as you learn to teach your students efficient skiing from day one, you will never teach such a poor set of movements again.

Furthermore, any person who would use world cup skiers as grown men and women as examples of why the wedge works, is so far off base that it shows how poor some people's understanding of skiing truly is. Those athletes discarded those movements as children because they were talented enough athletes. If they hadn't, they surely would not be skiing on the world cup. The average human being--especially learning later in life--does not have the same athletic ability to be able to drop a learned movement pattern without proper instruction. Take for example the video of the PSIA demo team. Even some of them have not discarded their wedge entry into the turn. The difference between the demo team skiing in a wedge and an average skiier is still athletic ability. The demo team can make it down steep slopes in difficult conditions using poor movements because of their higher athletic ability. If only they knew how much easier it could be and how much more they could get out of their skis. The average skiier using the same movements is an upper intermediate at best.

For every one of the racers at any level who has discarded the wedge, there are at least ten beginners and intermediates still stuck in it. Even worse, there are countless others in the 83% of those who quit skiing after trying it once. Nice.
Joseph
 

Postby *SCSA » Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:43 am

Hey Harvard,

I'm scanning over this same post on epic. I don't want you to get the feeling you're not welcome or that your stuff isn't good. You are, it is. It's a good post and gives us yet another chance to explain ourselves. Thanks for allowing us to do so! But would you please end the discussion there and carry it on here? This is the home of PMTS. Epic, the same he/she/its that rejected PMTS years ago, still reject it today. Over there, they still claim the wedge has a place in teaching and that a teaching system is not the best way to learn to ski. You're not going to get very favorable responses towards PMTS over there because epic is full of PSIA loyalists.

Me, I'm the most militant one here (so far anyway). My responses have a lot more anger and feeling in them, because I've known/ been a customer of Harald and Diana for 6 years now. They've both helped me out so much (and continue to). All the time I've spent on here, I'm just trying to return the favor. Seriously. When I'm making turns, I just feel like I have an unfair advantage and that I'm connected to the mountain. I can say this for sure. I never would have got this far this fast, had it not been for HSS.

So please, continue to ask the hard questions, just be sincere. We'll continue to answer them, while being nice he/she/its. :lol: I think in reading over the posts here, you have your answers as to why PMTS/HSS isn't more popular. There may only be a few of us, but we're an excited few and we love the sport. As I say, I stick with Harald/HSS because everything about them, is the best by far. If there was anything better, I'd be all over it.

As always, if you're nearby, make sure you let me know. I'm always wanting to make turns with others. :D

ttfn,
*SCSA
 

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