Questions on "rotary" and "steering"

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No Problem

Postby Si » Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:50 am

As it seems that the regulars feel that this has been beaten to death already and there is nothing more to be gained from discussion of this topic I will withdraw.
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Re: Questions on "rotary" and "steering"

Postby Jeff Markham » Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:00 am

Si wrote:c) something generally inefficient or undesirable for providing good control in a wide range of turns? If "c", can pure tipping actions of the ski sufficiently serve to reduce the radius of the turn to meet the requirment of most ski turns? Are there situations pure tipping can not adequately address?


Si, I believe that the answer for PMTSers is "c". Without getting into methods for increasing tipping, my understanding is that pulling the free foot back, further flexing the free leg, and extending the stance leg can tighten a turn beyond pure tipping.

Others: Is my understanding correct and are there other PMTS ways to decrease the radius of a turn beyond pure tipping?
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Postby *SCSA » Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:59 am

Hi Si,

First of all, don't get the idea that "we're"'; dogmatic, or snobby.

We've talked so much about steering here that maybe everyone just decided, "been there, done that".

But I've read your post a few times now -- I have something to add. And it's too cold to ski today, so I'm goofing off at home. :cry: I might even start drinking. :wink:

You ask if turns are made via tipping only. I say yes. Yesterday at the Beav, I was pondering this subject. I make turns using tipping only. Now, there's more to it than just tipping, but tipping is mostly what I'm thinking about. I control the turn shape, by how aggressively I flex up and tip over my free (inside foot).

But it's not just tipping only! So many think PMTS is about tipping only (I'm not saying you're one of them). There's so much more than that. It's about upper body and counter balancing, too. But can I make a turn (albeit my standard hack turns :wink: ) ala "tipping only"? I say yes. Rusty has been highly critical of high level PMTSians. He claims, they basically make lousy turns and can't carve to save their life. But if you were to ski with SkiSynergy, the Apprentice, or the Apprentice's driver, you'd have a much different opinion. You'd see skiers who are layin it down and rippin, using nothing but PMTS. It's not just Harald and Diana anymore. I'm starting to see talented young blood coming into PMTS and it's way cool. Besides. I told HH that if he doesn't get some younger customers, he's f'd. :lol:

You also seem to ask how involved rotary or steering is. I can steer my skis fine now. But steering is not the same as PMTS. I'm not saying which is "better". I'm just saying that I can do both and PMTS is different. In PMTS, we think about lateral moves and tipping. Not, rotary or steering. Steering is done with the thigh, tipping is done with the foot. Tipping over to the LTE is a pure lateral move.

Is rotary or steering involved somewhere in kinetic chain? Yes. When I'm making turns, most of my moves are lateral and I'm tipping. Are there times when I'm throwing my tails around? Sure! Is throwing one's tails rotary? Sure it is! No one here that I know of has ever maintained that making turns doesn't involve either skidding, check moves (throwing tails to the side), or jump turns. All, are rotary. Watch me ski bumps, I'm using a check move sometimes. That's rotary.

I'll Finnish (that's for Tommi :) ) with this. PMTS is like showing up to the hill with a plan. Most of the time, the plan works exactly. But there are times, usually in tougher conditions, when a skier needs to do what it takes to make a turn. Some athletic/balance move is needed to keep it together; throwing the skis to the side, jumping over something, whatever it takes. In these times for sure, I'd say rotary is not only involved, it's all that's involved!

Be cool Si. Sorry you and I didn't hit it off in JH. If you're ever out here, let's make some turns. You seem like a pretty cool cat and I'd like a second chance to get to know ya.

Merry Christmas,
*SCSA
 

Postby Ott Gangl » Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:25 am

>>>Ott, I for one, have learned a lot from this forum.<<<<

Sure, all of us have, but what I was referring to is the "my way or no way" attitudes that often prevail around here and the exchange in the posts often look to be of the 'mutual admiration society' kind.

The dinial that millions of skiers ski competently though they never heard of PMTS grates on instructors who are earnestly trying to help students of such variety of skill and intent that they do not fit into a rigid mold.

....Ott
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Postby *SCSA » Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:39 am

Hiya Ott,
I threw out the coffee, I'm drinking beer now. :wink:

1) My way or the highway? I don't theeeeeeeeeeeeenk so. See my last posts. You're confusing a learning system, PMTS, with being, dogma I guess?

2) Mutual admiration society? Where? Anyone I've ever commented on here deserves it. SkiSynergy rips, so does the Apprentice and he/she/its driver. Arc rips. WTF?

3) Rigid mold? When you gonna figure out that thousands now -- fat ones, skinny ones -- you name it, have/are learned DTP. The wedge Ott, needs to go away now. You can hold onto it, go ahead. Good thing you're retired now. DTP and PMTS can be taught to ANYONE. If you don't agree, whatever. You're part of the problem, not the answer.

4) Instructors that are earnestly trying to help? If you want to call them instructors, go ahead. I think them more in terms of baby sitters, mountain guides and concierges.

Ski instruction was invented not to teach skiers, but to simply get them on the hill. You can't sell a product that no one can use, so the wedge was invented. Pete and Earl couldn't manage it all, so the PSIA was invented.

The wedge was invented, not because it was good, but because it is the one thing that any tourist could do. Things haven't changed much since; PSIA ski instruction today, is for tourists and casual skiers.

But PMTS, is for motivated skiers.

burp.
*SCSA
 

Postby Ott Gangl » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:00 am

>>>>>PSIA ski instruction today, is for tourists and casual skiers.
But PMTS, is for motivated skiers.<<<<

OK, SCSA my friend, so who should teach the tourists and casual skiers? They are in the vast majority. I understood that HH tried to have PMTS replace the now prevelant ski teaching system so he must have provided for baby sitting services of unmotivated skiers.

So who would teach the tourists and casual teachers...?

I'll join you in that beer since we had the worst storm go right through our area in Akron, Ohio and it is bringing down trees in my yard which are covered in ice, One of them went over my cable and phone wires but luckily it just tore the anchors out of my wall and popped the staples without interupting service. over a foot of snow, then rain and now the temps are falling into the single digits and any ruts in the snow are permanent making driving a real hazard. And skiing the breakable crust will be interesting.

But no daubt, in the not so distant future there wont be much difference in teaching since PSIA gives much freedom to instructors to teach as they see fit, and that can easily include pure PMTS teaching. HH has often said that his system is open for anyone to teach and I already see many ski instructors incorporating some PMTS moves into their evryday teaching, Pierre I suspect will use quite a bit of it in his new job.

As far as the wedge is concerned, next time the ski partol hauls you off the hill in a toboggon better pray that the tail man knows how to wedge <grin>.

Merry Christmas to you and everybody and go ski.

....Ott
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Postby *SCSA » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:07 am

Folks, lel't s not get siodeways here. Pay no attention to Ott -- he/she/it has been drinking too. :lol:

Ott.

Get off this "independatlnhy (i can't even spell it) wealthy" thang. First of all, I take it as a compliment. Thank you very much. :)

I live 20 minutes from a ski area, it's easy to ski a lot. The harder I work, the luckier I get!
*SCSA
 

Postby *SCSA » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:13 am

Ott,

You weasel.

The fact that you would even mention me being taken off == on the free ride down (i won't type it) == is bad karma on you. That's (burup) hitting below the belt. Say whatever, but never, mention that.
*SCSA
 

Postby Ott Gangl » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:34 am

OK, I'll change that to 'anyone' you being excepted since you just float down the slope like an angel. See what a few Jaegermeisters will do? :)

....Ott
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Postby *SCSA » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:40 am

Deal.
I just opened my third beer and it'ss note even luchn timm,e. :lol: I'm now tipping it... :lol:
*SCSA
 

Postby Ott Gangl » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:46 am

>>>> I'm now tipping it..<<<

What are you trying to prove? That tipping alone will accomplish it without rotation???? :lol:

....Ott
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Postby *SCSA » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:51 am

Absolutey not.

Rotation is definitely involved. Ya see Ott, this tracks back to my post a few beers ago. In this case, I'm rotating the beer to examine the fine details of the label (Harp).
*SCSA
 

Postby *SCSA » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:55 am

Your compliments will get you nowhere.

This is not, a mutual admiration society. :lol:
*SCSA
 

latest in ski instruction

Postby Butthead » Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:49 pm

Hey Beavis,

"Check it out, these PMTS guys say steering sucks, I'm with them."

"No way buttmunch the wedge rocks. Hey do you think I can score with these PSIA chicks they sound easy."
Butthead
 

Passive rotation, when and where

Postby John Mason » Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:25 am

Ok - as Ott says, I ski a lot. Just got off 6 days of skiing. (supposed to be 8 but rain and high temps at Holiday Valley choked that)

Playing around with when the phantom move generates a rotation action, a couple of things to throw out.

1. The phantom move varies in it's action
a. if you tip the inside leg while leaving the outside leg flat, you get a rotational effect (albeit passive) of the outside leg
b. you can accentuate this by tipping the inside leg while leaving the tip in the snow
c. if done tetering on the top of a mogul, the passive rotation will do an immediate turn at the top of the mogul even if the outside leg is not left flat

Why does any of this occur? When you tip the foot, the femur points to the inside of the turn. In one of the very first PMTS exercises, you have the student practice stepping around a circle in PMTS style. This is very natural to do.
1. you put the circle between your boots
2. you step forward and tip your inside boot along the inside arc of the circle
3. you simply allow the outside foot to be brought up even with the inside foot - this outside foot will both follow the arc and the tipping of the inside foot

Femurs like to match. They don't have to match. In passive PMTS rotation this allowing the outside leg to follow the inside leg by just standing on it for most people produce matching angles.

In the hop turn in the ski the whole mountain book by eric and rob they teach using the phantom move with it's passive rotation component to set up the feet for the landing as it's the best way to both accomplish the rotation and the angles to support the immediate new turn.

In HH's book in the bump skiing section a similar style turn is taught at the crest of a mogul.

Both of these turns have nothing to do with following the natural carve or arc of the ski as they are much much tighter radius than any ski allows. In both these turns there is a near 90 degree direction change in the length of a ski. Obviously rotation is occuring.

Work with any beginner on the 2 footed release. The bottom of the turn rotates far tighter than the radius of the skis. The tails are typically washing out as they work on the phantom move and the turn is very tight, but slower and more controlled for a beginner than a full out carved turn would be. This is all a good thing. These are all examples of using the phantom move to create non-carved rotation of the skis.

In later PMTS one learns patience and to match the tipping to what the skis are able to carve. Those later types of turns are tightened by tipping more and/or by changing balance to more one ski which increases pressure and thus tightens the turn. Tipping more can be acomplished by increasing inside foot tipping and/or using counter and or counter balance. If the turn is just starting out, counter balance is used more than if a turn has accelerated where more counter is used than counter balance.

In this type of carved turn, if the snowboarder jumps out in front of me, I would just tip really hard on my inside foot and perhaps also pull back and maybe even lift the tail of my inside ski some and I'll do a 90 degree immediate avoidance turn in a ski length. If I did what I think others do, that is steer the outside leg to avoid, my body is in the wrong position and I'll fall over myself. PMTS style rotation puts the body where it needs to be for the g forces that arise. But, once again, that rotation is simply recruited by the phantom move alone.

But the top of the mogul turn or the chute hop turn work the passive rotation way in the context of PMTS.

Si is correct this is hardly every spoken of, but it is in the instructor book. You can "ignore" the passive rotation and people can argue that people are "rotating" to make passive rotation happen, but that's not what it feels like to do. You tip the inside foot, that femur rotates into the turn, the outside femur matches the angle. It's simple and a direct way to control with little muscles the big actions that follow. The red hering argument is that you can let your outside leg ignore the inside leg thus you must be "adding" rotation. The truer statement is since we are wired the way we are wired is that you must almost do something on purpose to not allow the outside leg to follow both the tipping and femur positions of the inside leg.

The bottom line is that not discussing how rotation (passive) is created with PMTS for situations that require the skis to follow a path tighter than their radius (including a ski's radius under pressure), leaves new people to PMTS or critics thinking PMTS is not versitile for all situations. This could be a logical conclusion unless the passive rotation effects of PMTS are discussed, played with on the hill, and felt.

A fun way to play with this is to start down a gentle slope and pick a direction to turn. To do this turn lift the tail of whatever the inside leg is going to be and tip that foot over. More often then not, you'll generate without diverging your tips, a PMTS skidded turn with a passive rotation component in it. Because the edge angles are pretty flat in this, the skis are not in any type of agressive carve, the resulting tight turn will be realized. The harder you tip over the inside ski, the tighter the turn will be.

Slow this all down, add counter, don't "over tip" but just balance over the skis within the natural turning arc of your skis and you'll get a carved turn.

It's the same basic motion, tipping the inside foot, in all of these turn initiations.

Now my disclaimer. At least this is how I look at all of this.
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