Questions on "rotary" and "steering"

[Si]

I posted these a couple of weeks ago over at Epic and didn't get many direct responses. I would be very interested to hear from people here on these questions. Thanks.

1) Does the kinetic chain used to purely tip a ski ever require active rotation of the femur/hip (using hip rotator muscles) to produce a pure tipping motion of the skis. If so, under what circumstances.

2) Is active rotation (internal or external) of the femur/hip to produce steering (rotation - active or passive? see previous question - beyond that necessary to tip the ski to desired extent) a) at all necessary, b) regulary necessary, or c) something generally inefficient or undesirable for providing good control in a wide range of turns? If "c", can pure tipping actions of the ski sufficiently serve to reduce the radius of the turn to meet the requirment of most ski turns? Are there situations pure tipping can not adequately address?

[Eddy]

Answers question 1. No

Answer question 2. a. No b. No and c. Yes second part of c. No

Come on Si, you can do better than to ask questions that are barely understandable.

[Joe bob]

Si, It would be helpful to you (since you are new) if you reviewed the countless posts and valuable discussion in this forum, on the subject you asked about. If you had, you would not need to reintroduce questions about materials that have been thoroughly covered by knowledgeable and notable ski luminaries such as Ski Synergy, Harald, Joseph, and Arcmeister.

[Si]

I am neither new to PMTS or this forum. I have had numerous personal discussions with both Harald and Arc and know them and their ideas pretty well. I have read a number of the posts from Ski Synergy and Joseph.

I posted these 2 questions as I believe that these are very basic and specific issues that are perhaps at the root of the differences between different schools of thought about skiing and ski movments. Additionally they are questions that can be answered objectively through measurement. Thus I think they provide a simple and effective way to discuss differences.

These are truly meant to be open questions. Do I think I know how people from different "schools" will respond? Yes. Do I want to speak for others? No. I would like to be able to reference specific points of view to people (or groups of people if they have similar points of view) and ultimately compare them to objectively determined results.

[jbotti]

Si, as innocent as your post may be, it has the appearance of potentially dragging everyone back into a discusiion that no one wants about whether leg steering is good, essential, necessary or similar to tipping. One thing is for sure, in PMTS leg steering is not only non essential, but something to be avoided at all cost. Perhaps more importantly, and I feel confident that I can speak for Harald on this, it's not open for discussion. To progress in PMTS one has to accept this, and most of us on this site have a long time ago. The reason it is not an issue for most is that the result that leg steering produces in my skiing (and I assume in everyone elses) is negative. Hence I don't need to get into a philosophical discussion about the merits of leg steering. I have actual tangible proof that it inhibits my progress. This being the PMTS FORUM, I suggest that you try to have that discussion with a group of people that aren't already convinced that leg steering inhibits their progress as skiers.

[Guest from NC]

Thanks Jbotti, as usual you are right on. Si, there is no root to the difference, one works the other does not. There is no need for this discussion to begin all over again; it has been beat to death. Harald has made it clear how PMTS works. PMTS doesn?t need, want, or have to have a substitute for steering just to make the PSIA boys feel justified or acquitted.

Thousands of PMTS skiers have given up on PSIA lessons for the very reasons jbotti states. Steering is just one of the many failed approaches and principles of PSIA. PSIA teaching methods are littered with contradictions and failures in ever basic concept.

Now they have even given up a national teaching system and suggested everyone should teach whatever. How?s that for confidence in your system. They have brainwashed thousands of instructors leaving them stranded and disenfranchised from a national system of their own. They have finally come to realize their present system can no longer stand up against modern scrutiny and modern skiers? needs and skis. Let the posts about steering continue on Epic where they belong.

[Rusty Guy]

Thanks Jbotti, as usual you are right on. Si, there is no root to the difference, one works the other does not. There is no need for this discussion to begin all over again; it has been beat to death. Harald has made it clear how PMTS works. PMTS doesn?t need, want, or have to have a substitute for steering just to make the PSIA boys feel justified or acquitted.

Thousands of PMTS skiers have given up on PSIA lessons for the very reasons jbotti states. Steering is just one of the many failed approaches and principles of PSIA. PSIA teaching methods are littered with contradictions and failures in ever basic concept.

Now they have even given up a national teaching system and suggested everyone should teach whatever. How?s that for confidence in your system. They have brainwashed thousands of instructors leaving them stranded and disenfranchised from a national system of their own. They have finally come to realize their present system can no longer stand up against modern scrutiny and modern skiers? needs and skis. Let the posts about steering continue on Epic where they belong.

Did he say brainwashed and was the number he tossed out thousands?

[Guest from NC]

That's right Yankee can't you read.

[Si]

First I have had a number of conversations on this topic with Harald so I don't think anyone needs to explain to me what he would say.

Second, the responses I am receiving here seem as close minded and dogmatic as those from the greatest antogonists over at Epic.

Third, PMTS (and especially the opportunities where I have gotten direct coaching from Harald) has played a very large role in the advances I have made in my skiing not the least of which has been a greatly increased utilization of tipping as opposed to steering movements. I regularly credit PMTS for this and refer people to the HarbSkiSystems site and Harald's books.

Finally, my first question had nothing to do with steering and was asking about the role of hip rotator muscles when PURE tipping is initiated through a proper kinetic chain (starting at the foot). This was intended to help clarify issues to better allow for discussion on this issue. It seems that the people who have responded here have no desire to try and understand this and perhaps gain better insight through an improved understanding of kinetic chain recruitment patterns. If, as one responder has suggested, there is no role for hip rotators in tipping (i.e. they are flacid), I would certainly like to see a study validating this. I have great difficulty believing that most people are capable of monitoring their level of hip rotator activation. As far as I've seen, this is still an open question and one I'd be very interested in learning more about.

The second question was intended to explore the degree to which tipping alone can produce turn shape. It in no way had any bias about whether steering (generated by active hip rotation greater than that needed for the desired degree of tipping) is good or bad or right or wrong. 100% is cetainly an acceptable opinion. But I still would like to explore the extremes, to understand, for example, whether increasing tipping angle at very high edge angle (to further decrease turning radius) is always more effective than adding in some active twisting (steering) of the ski. People can claim there is NO role for steering but my question was intended to evoke some explanation for such an absolute statement. Again I was not voicing a personal opinion on this issue but asking for the opinions of others (with explanation of course as yes and no opinions alone are not worth much).

As I said in the beginning this forum has so far proved to be a tough crowd to interact with.

[ydnar]

Si,

My understanding is that PMTS looks on the rotation from the hip rotators as a 'passive' form of rotation. I'm not sure if I agree with the idea of a passive rotation. If the rotation is driven by the tipping in some way then the rotation could be passive but if the rotation is something that must occur to allow the further tipping of the ski and is the outcome of larger muscles being actively used in response to the actions of smaller muscles being maxed out lower in the kenitic chain then I don't know if I would view that as a passive. If the rotation indeed comes from muscular action then activating the action through the actions of the feet would be a much subtler method of generating the rotation and offer a more accurate way of controlling the rotation than focusing on using the large rotator muscles to generate an outcome of tipping at the feet. I too would like to know the answer to the question of whether or not the various muscles that generate rotation in the legs are firing in a high level PMTS generated turn.

For the second question I can only answer for myself. I can generate and control a vast array of turn shapes and degrees of brushing using tipping in an isolated fashion. But, personally I find that by adding in a pointing or guiding element to the equation I can more accurately control the turn shape and degree of brush.

yd

[piggyslayer]

Harald and PMTS advocates skiing with your feet. However, the muscles up the kinetic chain are also involved to creating/maintaining correct position, applying counter actions and counter balance, etc. I am sure you know all of this.

Here is what I understand about your question no 1.
The hip inverter (lateral rotation) muscles can play an important role in skiing as well. They role is more of stabilize and co-contract against the hip adductor/medial rotation muscles. For example for many skiers an A-frame position is resultant from medial rotation of femur in the hip joint and can be avoided by co-contracting the muscles which oppose this movement.

At the same time you should notice that some level of rotation is available in the knee joint (especially if the knee is bending a lot as in the boots with a lot of forward lean). These movements are controlled by complex combination of different muscles many originate high up but some like popliteus originate low on the femur and insert on the tib. Again it is important to resist the tendency to use these muscles to control your skiing.
You should not think about driving your knees when turning.
But these muscles are again very valuable in stabilizing the knee joint via co-contraction.

Pure tipping when done using LTE and free foot results in very skeletally strong knee position. It is advised to use hip counter acting movement to actually lock the knee and hip from rotating. This is why Javelin turns are so effective drill for many skiers.

Hopes this is inline with what you have expected to discuss in your first question.
There is a lot of material on this forum which talks about what I have outlined. Search for SkierSynergy posts.

Sorry I run out of time for now.

Robert

[Ott Gangl]

Folks, while this is a PMTS forum, I understand your fervor. Contrary to your belief, Epicski is not a PSIA forum. Sure, the Instructions section of the forum is populated by many PSIA instructors, some from foreign countries and a few PMTS instructors. But by far the most people taking part in the discussions are just skiers with no alegience to any system, they are more often trying to find the silver bullet to improve their skiing in better equipment instead of lessons or they want to spend their valuable vacaton time skiing not taking lessons, no matter how good or bad their technique is.

Contrary to what I read here, most skiers consider skiing a recreation like bowling or going to the beach. Sliding around and bragging in the bar is much more fun than trying to perfect something that the average skier can only practice 10-15 days a season, if that.

When I read that posters who are not instructors or work in the industry ski 40-50 days a season, that is over a month worth and I don't know anybody besides independently wealthy folks like Mason or SCSA who can just take time off at will too go skiing.

So when unmotivated and unprepared skiers line up for a lesson just because it is included in their package deal for the day's bus trip, any instructor of any system working at a resort has to bite the bullet and make the best of it. The isntructor has an hour with them and if they can't balance on one ski or they have ill fitting rental equipment it doesn't matter, you can't send them home because they paid and they want the instructor to teach them even though often their unwilling to learn.

So please let this be a skier friendly forum to the 97% of the clueless as well as the informed ...we can all learn from the questions that are asked and the realization that this is just recreational skiing for all but a few racers and extreme skiers.

....Ott

[Guest from NC]

Who are you trying to kid?

[Ott Gangl]

Guest from NC, why do you think you don't get questions from newbees and novices such as are posted on Epic?

Skiing without health insurance.
Attitudes toward snowboarders, (asked both by skiers and snowboarders)
One hour lesson waste? what then.
How do you control speed?
Long rambling rookie question.
What is banking: right/wrong
etc...
etc...

It is because there are no answers here to such questions except to tell people to take a PMTS lesson or to tell them to buy and read books or buy videos.

It would be much better here if all the PMTS instructors here gave serious advice to those people and the unqualified and non certified PMTS skiers would defer to the expertese of those PMTS instructors. Glib answers and bashing of other teaching systems don't really help the skier at Taos or Steamboat who wants to know how to get down the hill.

PMTS, good as it is, is not available in 97% of ski areas, especially at any time one is on vacation and walks up to the ski school window to purchase a lesson.

Meanwhile, if any help could be made available on this forum without making the person who is asking feel like a klutz because they are either self taught or took non-PMTS lessons at an area. After helping as much as is possible on a forum, suggesting a PMTS class and a schedule of where and when they are available is not only appropriate but helpfull.

I enjoy this forum greatly as I do all others I visit and I constantly try to defuse the unfriendly and often hatefull atmosphere. This post reflects the reality that exists and a gentler tone would go a long way.

....Ott

[piggyslayer]

Si,
As you have noticed jbotti and my answers (from the previous post) are really identical.

One more comment I would like to make is that pure lateral tipping movements can be confused (and I think often are) with carving.
Pure tipping does not necessarily yields carved turns. This can be by choice (for example to ski very slow) or by skier inability to go to the next step.
You can do pure tipping movements (no rotation) and still not carve. This leads to your question no 2.
We have been discussing question no 2 (together with 1) last year and I think everyone is really tired of it (I know I am). The position that I believe strongly in, is to follow Harald advice on eliminating steering in all situations and as he demonstrates with his skiing this goal is possible to achieve and worth learning.

The reason why you are not receiving input from this forum on your questions is that all folks have enough of beating the dead horse. There will be always people (Rusty is on the list) who will not agree with people not steering and yes this is the goal for folks here in skiing all ski conditions. Your question even though is not intended to be political is or will end up being political.
The problem is that both sides have a need to talk and neither wants to listen to the other side. I for one am only interested in these conversations if they yield my better understanding of the kinetic chain.
It would be better to find topics on which we can agree on and start discussing these.

Ott, I for one, have learned a lot from this forum. It is more than advice to take a lesson with HarbSkiSystems and buy books. Posts here contain a lot of information if you spend a bit of time searching for it.

Robert