Counter acting is a movement like any "Essential of Skiing"

[h.harb]

http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com

[razie]

great! i was just on this chapter of the essentials and had a question: the picture or Roby Kelly, two posts down in your blog, he's basically i guess square to his skis at pretty much the same point in the turn - when the skis are in the fall line...

same thing in your book, page 140 - it makes sense that we are facing the same direction as the skis in two parts of the turn: the transition AND the fall line - isn't it? i guess in SL is more like only in the fall line...

so - why isn't Hirscher? was he late in that gate and he's fighting to pressure and get those boards to turn now...or what?

thanks,
Razie

[h.harb]

I guess I don't see my photo as being square in the falline or Robbie Kelly, as square in the falline, both are counter acted. So I think you have to adjust your interpretation of square verses countered. I've never tired to ski square in my life, it just leads to loss of edge grip, energy and rebound. You come square only after you absorb the energy from the last turn. Or if it's your only alternative to saving yourself and still making the corner.

[razie]

sorry - i don't know why i said square... - what i meant was that you are facing the same direction as the skis. makes sense: in page 140 you are countered facing downhill while the skis point left and then you have to face downhill as the skis point right, so when the skis pointed downhill, you were pointing downhill as well.

[Matt]

it makes sense that we are facing the same direction as the skis in two parts of the turn: the transition AND the fall line - isn't it? i guess in SL is more like only in the fall line...


Razie

What you say does not make sense Razie.
only in the fall line sound like the PSIA concept "skiing into and out of counter". It is not PMTS and it makes no sense. At the fall line you want big angles, and you don't get that by beeing square.

Beeing sqaure in transition AND fall line makes even less sense. It implies that the CA move would go in and out several times per turn.

The hip will only be square to the skis in one moment in each turn, and its just a position you move through. Like Harald said, CA is a movement, not a position

[razie]

watch these guys: http://youtu.be/_UrhJLGBS4Q at no point do they counter with the shoulders facing anywhere other but down the hill - this is SL. this means they do not counter facing the bases in the high-C.

anyways, this is more of a confusion of mine. in the essentials book, from the photos, i got the notion that in the high-c CA is facing the downhill but later it says that CA is facing the bases, which is quite the opposite, while in the high-C.

i think i have a bigger problem visualizing the high-C in detail, including how gingerly to contact the snow and which way to counter in which discipline...

[razie]

i think i'm starting to understand the CA aspect now: it's not as mechanical as 1-2-3.... as proved by the Hirscher photo versus the SL guys, you CA as much as you need in the high-C, depending on turn shape, speed and other stuff.

i guess you would say the SL guys are skiing into counter? for them, they would have to twist their torso too much to face their bases in the high-c...

[geoffda]

i think i'm starting to understand the CA aspect now: it's not as mechanical as 1-2-3.... as proved by the Hirscher photo versus the SL guys, you CA as much as you need in the high-C, depending on turn shape, speed and other stuff.

i guess you would say the SL guys are skiing into counter? for them, they would have to twist their torso too much to face their bases in the high-c...

Yes, you CA however much you need to counter act the rotation that your tipping is causing. It is not a position; CA is something you are constantly changing throughout the turn. Counteracting must be done in proportion to your tipping. It isn't just something you do in the high C. Just as tipping should increase throughout the turn, counteracting should increase throughout the turn.

"Skiing into counter" is the wrong concept. What that means is trying to hold your torso facing down the hill while your legs are moving underneath. The problem with that concept is that the torso moves independently of the hips, so if you just focus on your torso, your hips will end up following your femurs and you won't actually have counteracting (and you will have hip rotation). Remember, the whole idea is to counter act the femoral rotation that is caused by the movements of tipping. If you aren't moving your hips, you aren't counteracting, regardless of what it might look like.

True counteracting greatly increases grip and edge hold. Skiing into counter actually does the opposite as the rotation flattens the ski and causes it to break loose. Most people who advocate skiing into counter are steering their turns so they don't recognize this. If you don't have grip to begin with, there is nothing to lose by failing to properly counteract. It isn't about adopting some pose. There are real technical benefits to doing it properly.

[razie]

"Skiing into counter" is the wrong concept. What that means is trying to hold your torso facing down the hill while your legs are moving underneath.

But isn't that a good description of what SL is about and what the guys in the video above are doing? Keep facing down the fall line while the feet are moving underneath?

The problem with that concept is that the torso moves independently of the hips, so if you just focus on your torso, your hips will end up following your femurs and you won't actually have counteracting (and you will have hip rotation). Remember, the whole idea is to counter act the femoral rotation that is caused by the movements of tipping. If you aren't moving your hips, you aren't counteracting, regardless of what it might look like.

So what you are saying is that torso counteracting is the visible part while the actual part that matters is counteracting with the hips, which is not that visible? So, in the high-c, while my feet start tipping to the downhill, i start counteracting with my hips the other way, which sets me up for the increased forces in the low-c...?

[geoffda]

But isn't that a good description of what SL is about and what the guys in the video above are doing? Keep facing down the fall line while the feet are moving underneath?

Yes and no. Unquestionably the best SL skiers tend to face down the fall line, so there is some truth to the description. But it doesn't tell the complete story. The ski into counter people tend to think that the facing down the fall line is what matters, when that is just a side effect of proper movements of the hips. CA is about turning the hips in the opposite direction of the turn to counteract the femoral rotation caused by tipping the feet. If all you do is hold your torso so it faces down the fall line, you accomplish nothing. The hips follow the femurs which rotate the feet, pulling the ski off edge and dumping all of the energy from the turn. The best SL skiers face down hill as a result of proper CA movements of their hips. Facing down the hill is a result of a specific input, which in this case is CA.

Some of the weaker skiers in that video are struggling (and when I use the words weaker and struggling, I mean them very relatively) with counteracting (many of them have one side that is bad) and you can see that while they are able to hold, the turns the lack energy and crispness in transition relative to the better skiers. Compare the first skier to the last skier (who is the winner). Or just watch Marlies Schild ski slalom.

When evaluating skiing, it is always a good idea to ask what effect something will have on balance and on the ski itself. Everything taught in PMTS is designed to positively affect both balance and control of the ski. If you just ask that question every time you are presented with technical information, it provides a very good way to filter out the b.s. In this case, how would simply facing down the hill have a positive effect on your ability to balance or control the ski? The answer is that it really does nothing positive, which means that it must be a result of some other movement that is actually contributing to balance and ski control. Great skiers don't make extraneous movements, so if you are seeing something and you can't figure out how it contributes to balance and ski control, then you are probably focused on the wrong thing.

So what you are saying is that torso counteracting is the visible part while the actual part that matters is counteracting with the hips, which is not that visible? So, in the high-c, while my feet start tipping to the downhill, i start counteracting with my hips the other way, which sets me up for the increased forces in the low-c...?

Yes. Both counter acting and counter balance take real effort to achieve and active movement that isn't necessarily easily visible when you are watching the skiing. In addition, for short turns, it is beneficial to hold the counter acting from the previous turn until you are on your new edges which furthers the image that the skier is doing nothing more than facing down the hill.

You have to know what you are looking for before you can see this stuff. When you know to watch the hips, you will see them move (or move in the wrong direction in the case of people skiing into counter, or not trying to counter at all). That is why so many people get skiing wrong. It is easy to make bad assumptions when you are trying to understand skiing based on what you think you are seeing. You have to be able to do it and understand it before it becomes easy to see.

[zuschauer]

Razie, maybe you are a visual learner, but don't be fooled by photos that don't seem to show to your eye what someone is trying to explain to you. Take a look at Hirscher or another skier that HH has pointed out from time to time on video at full speed then slow it down until you can see what is going on. Concentrate on the counteraction and how it is in proportion to tipping and other PMTS movements.

Photos can be misleading depending upon the timing vs the point in the turn they are taken.

Don't try to conceptualize it so much. Just watch the video and break down the movements. SLOW the video down as needed. It's like learning basic math instead of calculus. (PSIA & your canadian system etc.) I am equating to "bad" calculus) Also, take a look at the movement analysis section of the forum. Watch some of this video and pay attention to the commentary of those who have reviewed the videos. There are some great MA's there with a multitude of different movements being reviewed. It is often easier to see the movements on those skiers who are at a lesser level than Hirscher and who might be concentrating on just one or two movements vs the entire package.

Just remember that when it is confusing you need to simplify and break these things down to their simplest element. Trying to see the entire picture without understanding the key elements or possibly in your case, having another whole set of beliefs and terminology from your federation, can be very confusing.

When trying the movements, the same logic applies. Work on an element until you "own it" as John Botti says. Only then should you try another or even try to combine elements. Also, don't rely on your perception of how well you are doing this, get someone to shoot video of what you are attempting to do. There's a good reason why "got video?" is a very popular expression here.

good luck,
looking forward to seeing that first MA request from you

[h.harb]

HH QUOTE: SKIING INTO COUNTER IS BULL SHIT

This is a misconception perpetrated by national ski schools; magazine articles, internet ski sites, examiners, trainers, like in PSIA's, ATS.

I have posted this before "ad infinitum", so please take note of it or save it somewhere under the category of Counter-acting.

When CA is done properly you can't see it. Because proper CA, makes the upper body and hips look like they are not moving. But you can't get that without knowing how to CA properly. When it's done in excess your body (counter) winds, too much and there is too much movement making for over countering, which takes too long to come back to neutral, for the quickness of turns you see in the Korean Free Ski competition. Therefore; appropriate CA is there, but it's such a fast turn, CA isn't obvious. Only those that know how to ski at this level understand what they have to do to hold it together.

Some of these skiers, don't have enough CA and you see over square and rotation at the end of the turn, which often shows up as an "A" frame.
The arcs in the Korean Technical skiing video are really half turns, not much "High C" in them. These skiers can only manage to CA enough through transition to keep from rotating. Without it they would never have the rebound they achieve, skiing into counter is too passive for this quick and energetic an arc. Ski Schools and coaches don't teach it, because they don't see it. You have to know what to do and then apply it. And knowing how to teach CA properly is what we do in PMTS. I've been in a starting gate of many FIS slalom races, Nor Ams, and World Cups, where you are staring down a steep, icy hill, filled with gates. You don't ski into counter there or you will get no farther than 5 gates.

Everyone of the skiers in that Korean competition, at or above 277 points, (especially watch the guy in the florescent orange at 277 points) is counter acting in transition, before the falline, but because it's so quick and fast the results aren't obvious until below the falline. To interpret that as, "skiing into counter", is what gets instructors, coaches and national teaching organizations into trouble with technique and teaching. That's why they never achieved great skiing for their students. Some of their demonstrators have it, but they figured it out on their own, because they are great athletes, and they have figured out how to use CA properly. Said quickly, without 20 paragraphs of explanation, SKIING INTO COUNTER, IS BULL SHIT. It relegates you to Golf Cart skiing, like you see in most ski instructor skiing. Passive and slow.

[Max_501]

Disregard what you think you see in the race videos and instead put into action what is written in Essentials. Do this and the end result should be what is seen in the videos.

Note - It takes a large muscular effort to CA such that the upper body appears to be stable to the casual observer.

[h.harb]

If this were Facebook you'd get a Big "Like".

[h.harb]

Razie, you have yet to implement counter with your torso, if your avatar is any indication? It looks like you rotate your upper body. Compare your pole hand, to Max501's outside pole hand in his Avatar, it tells the whole story in one frame..