Science

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Science

Postby milesb » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:21 am

One attractive thing about PMTS is the claim that it is backed up with hard science. Now of course we all know that "expert scientists" can be found to support just about anything, and as a layperson, I wouldn't understand most of it even if I were given the references. But I never see similiar claims from other teaching methods.
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Postby Rusty Guy » Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:20 pm

I would suggest you have hit the nail right on the proverbial head!
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Here he goes again!

Postby Jack » Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:07 pm

I though you went away. Just can't get enough abuse, it was nice around here without you. Just information, not b----s--.

Rusty you are a low level want to be (PSIA) ski instructor who has proven to be wrong in every situation and opinion you have ever posted and you continue to make an ass of yourself. You must be a fun guy, (not big on brains though) but are you sure you are a Rusty Guy and not a rusty squirrel.
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Ther is no science in Traditioanl Teaching Systems

Postby Eddy » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:36 pm

There is no data about teaching or alignment systems because other teaching systems, PSIA being last on the list, don't participate in any science activities. They don't because they would be made fools of, the universities are usually the entities that present information and technical data.

Harb Ski Systems is the only independent contributor to the International Congresses, in both the biomechanics and kinesiology fields. Their abstracts are available and they have been evaluated by an international body of scientists. Harb Ski Systems, is in fact the only body that has presented its materails to be evaluated and scrutinized by the interantional science community.

There has never been any PSIA representation at any skiing congress of record. Harb Ski Systems has recorded and presented three topics and categories of research in the last four years. Harb Ski Systems bases its evaluations on over two thousand biomechanical assessments and even more skiers in their systems, skiers that have been ruined and turned off by tradition skiing approaches.

Let the skiers speak for themselves, if you want the data, call up Harald and he?ll take you through the endless data sheets he has accumulated over the past ten years.

Most PSIA instructors obviously doesn?t understand skier motivation. Most are therefore people with an agenda that doesn?t match anyone?s direction, but their own level of insecurity, and inferiority. I can understand why they are so threatened they have no logical approaches. It would help if they did their own thing, no one here is asking for their latest, if they had anything but old, used up, information.
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Postby Joe bob » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:45 pm

Milesb, did you just wake up or what.? No "expert scientist" with any skiing knowledge would back up anything PSIA has printed. In fact, check the posts that Ski Syn has referenced about scientists at Stanford, rejecting PSIA steering and rotary, for joint health reasons. I need no more than that to reject PSIA teachings, even if PSIA did improve my skiing experience, which it never has.
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Re: Here he goes again!

Postby Rusty Guy » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:02 pm

Jack wrote:I though you went away. Just can't get enough abuse, it was nice around here without you. Just information, not b----s--.

Rusty you are a low level want to be (PSIA) ski instructor who has proven to be wrong in every situation and opinion you have ever posted and you continue to make an ass of yourself. You must be a fun guy, (not big on brains though) but are you sure you are a Rusty Guy and not a rusty squirrel.


Jack,

Well thought out and cleverly said.
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smart

Postby Jack » Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:09 am

And he can read wow, clones that can read super where is the world going next?
Jack
 

stick to the topic

Postby Jack » Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:12 am

Sorry, I got off course. Where are your answers to the topic, don't you have anything worth while to contibute?
Jack
 

Postby Ott Gangl » Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:31 am

OK, guy, stop this witless dribble....Ott
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Postby milesb » Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:40 am

Hmm, this isn't really going well. What I was getting at is this:
While normally A long list of scientific credentials doesn't impress me too much (for the reasons I gave above), the lack of such credentials and references from PMTS naysayers makes a definite statement. For example, I have read many TPS articles, and don't recall ever seeing scientific references when the article conflicts with PMTS. Go to a Mac vs Windows thread on a computer forum, and you will see such references and data spewed about by both sides. The only thing I've ever seen that comes close was an old thread on Paula's where the credentials of some doctor who endorsed Harb were disputed. The thread apparantly no longer exists.
I'm not sure why you guys attacked Rusty. I don't think he was being sarcastic. Most of us posting here are not experts, we just want to learn, and stuff like that really gets in the way.
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Postby Rusty Guy » Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:34 pm

miles,

Thanks for the defense. I honestly get a kick out of the vitrol. It amazes me as much as anything.

In all honesty the point I was trying to make is that I have never heard anyone withen PSIA try to equate skiing and science. It is after all....sport or recreation.

I have never heard anyone involved in any athletic endeavor try to create a nexus between the two as a supporting argument for technique.

"Science" encompasses an awful lot of terrain. Are we talking physics, chemistry, meteorology, biology? I may be mistaken, however, what are HH's credentials that make him a..........scientist?

Jack......I hope you have a great holiday.
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Postby Guest from NC » Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:51 pm

I'll have to send some of my boys up to see you at what ever place you ski. I'm sure you'll give them a warm southern welcome. They like nice northern boys like you. They like to have a good time to, you won't mind, will ya?
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Postby Snowspeed » Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:54 pm

How about some basic economics? A smart investor will expect recieve a modest return on his/her investment. Mr. R Guy on the other hand continues to invest time reading and writing on this forum, and I cannot discern what he expects to recieve for his time and effort.

Rusty,
1) No one on this forum is going to say something like "Rusty, you are right, and I am wrong." Even if you stated the sky was blue. Your resevoir of credibility is exausted.
2) Your defence of rotary movements, although inspired, on this forum is like wearing a KKK sheet at a JDL meeting, in a synagogue. Burn a cross on someone else's doorstep.
3) If you do in fact get some perverse enjoyment out of lurking about on a forum that you so evidently disagree with, you really need to ski more often. Get some big boards and spend a morning doing SG turns on Corona.
4) This site is not especially PSIA friendly and rates skiers on a very demanding scale. If you disagree with that so much, why waste your time reading and posting on PMTS? Time is money as the cliche goes, so spend your time wisely somewhere's else and don't waste our's here.

PS, If you really want to prove your ideas, show up at the next Rocky Mountain Masters Race and let's see what you got under the hood! I'll put up $50 that you don't get within 3 seconds of DR's time in a GS.

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Postby piggyslayer » Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:22 pm

All competitive sports when done sufficiently high level are close to science. Especially all sports where time is being measured.
Harald?s coaching background at WC levels is the most likely the reason why PMTS is so scientific.
You scratch you head how to change your movements to gain milliseconds, what do you do? You have to go outside of any dogma and go into dirty little kinesthetic details of every single movement you making, gory details of physics of snow contact, etc.

So, in this respect agree with Rusty.
Its in part because PMTS roots are not recreation but competitive racing.

Robert
Piggy Slayer
let the piggy breathe
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Postby Belskisfast » Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:44 pm

Snowspeed
Where are you skiing in Tahoe?
I'm off to Sugarbowl tomorrow. Would you care to hook up?
I agree with whomever said Rusty Guy was not being too antagonistic here. It seems RG just likes to engage in argument. He is reasoned most of the time, though that doesn't make his points correct or valid. Agreed, he should be shuned if he gets back on the crass personal attack track. RG have you been PMTS'ing with SCSA? Feel the force....abandon the dark side....lol!!!!!
I had a PMTS alignment done last week along with an on snow assesment and lesson. Absolutely fantastic. Other than the obvious, impossible to deny fact that I have probably never engaged a high C turn....on purpose lol....I enjoyed every second. Thank you Skiwizard!! PMTS is a user friendly tool box....far more so than PSIA, in my experience. My wife who learned to ski in Switzerland and has that flowing elegance style, also took part, and she is convinced that her control of speed and stability on the steeps is far better with primary movements. She has no dog in this fight, and didn't particularly want to participate in our PMTS day. It is obvious to me that the PMTS method yields immediate, measurable results, even for experienced skiers.
I love skiing and I am so glad I found PMTS. My knees are glad too. Especially the one without an ACL. Oh, and my wife who also tends to get a bit tired by mid-day, was far more energetic far longer, employing PMTS technique. These are real-world observations and feedback. No need to flame me for PSIA heresey.
Rusty, with all due respect, take a PMTS session and then tell us you didn't get something out of it.

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