Finishing the Turn

[kirtland]

Finishing the turn and how to do it by flexing, has been rarely mentioned and IMO an under rated topic, on this forum, in the books and in the DVD. Harald gave it just a brief mention in the Performance free Skiing video at 10:39 right where HighC: Top of the Arc Comes on the screen . So I appreciate he is mentioning it, in his Blog

http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2012/ ... -snow.html



this helps to demonstrate how he makes these tracks on the steep



I find it alot easier, smoother and more effective, if I flex to finish the turn, then to continue flexing and tipping to begin the next turn, than to finish the turn on an extended leg, trying to hold the load and an edge, then flexing and tipping.

[Max_501]

The flexing HH mentions above is covered in Essentials. Its an advanced movement that increases edge angles at the bottom of the turn.

[kirtland]

Max_501 The flexing HH mentions above is covered in Essentials. Its an advanced movement that increases edge angles at the bottom of the turn.

Yes it is in the Essentials. And yes it can be used, to increase angles at the bottom of the turn.

My point of bringing it up, is that I find the absence of discussion of it on the forum so obvious. The last mention I found of it with a search, was last year, in reference to Nolan Kasper and before that back in 2004. I brought it up once before, a couple of years ago, in reference to Marcel Hirscher's use of it in GS, but Harald dismissed it, as me not being qualified, "to observe what I was seeing," to paraphrase Yogi Berra, and deleted the post.

I think, the Axioms; "Finish the turn" and "The end of one turn, is the beginning of the next" are as valid today, as they were when I learned to ski in the 60's. And the concept of Flexing to Finish the Turn, is important to facilitate both. As Harald points out in the Essentials, it is in the timing of the Flex. The only part of it I consider advanced, is that it take more strength and conditioning to be strong enough to ski with a flexed leg, under load and have the strength to control additional flexing while it is under load.

I think if more people were aware of it on this forum, and implemented it, they would find it helpful. I can't ever recall it being mentioned in any of the Movement Analysis.

[BigE]

The only part of it I consider advanced, is that it take more strength and conditioning to be strong enough to ski with a flexed leg, under load and have the strength to control additional flexing while it is under load.

This is not right. No one is advocating that you ski with a flexed leg under load. Flex to release!

[Max_501]

The only part of it I consider advanced, is that it take more strength and conditioning to be strong enough to ski with a flexed leg, under load and have the strength to control additional flexing while it is under load.

This description doesn't sound quite right. For the 'flex to increase tipping angles' movement the additional flex needed is very small. For 'flexing to release' the movement can be as simple as relaxing the outside leg muscles.

[cheesehead]

The stance mode is static (the leg is >>flexed<< -- neither the hip or the knee is at full extension)

The release mode is a movement (the leg is >>flexing<< to lift the ski and transfer balance)

That is how I view it at my elementary level. Personally, I like these simple distinctions, although they do have their limitations. And Harald's descriptions are extremely well presented and thorough.

If you lock your knee in full extension in the stance mode you are probably asking for injury. Having it flexed is not that much harder, if it all, unless you are not in balance. At least that is my experience -- if it feels like my quads can't hold my leg up, it isn't the quads fault, I am too far back or leaning.

[BigE]

I don't think anyone is debating the locked knee scenario.

I'm just concerned about what kirtland wrote: it suggests that the stance leg is flexed to the point that the musculature is carrying the load. This is not so.

[Matt]

I don't think anyone is debating the locked knee scenario.

I'm just concerned about what kirtland wrote: it suggests that the stance leg is flexed to the point that the musculature is carrying the load. This is not so.

Then perhaps you can explaing what the purpose of the move is? If you are not carrying any load you are not affecting the turn, what then is the purpose of the increased tipping?
In Haralds own words the move "allows the skis to finish with a tightening arc". This will not happen unless the skis are loaded and if the skis are loaded what is carrying this load if not the muscles?

[BigE]

As I understand the move:

Begin flexing to release, and tip in the old direction at the same time. The flexion upsets balance so that the body moves into the next turn, while the skis continue to turn "uphill".

Since the body is moving across the skis, the skis are not fully loaded. In other words, you do not remain in the old turn when flexing. You do not remain balanced on the stance leg and straining to hold onto the old turn in this flexed position.

[Max_501]

A few old posts that explain the advanced movement HH mentions on his blog.

From what I can gather, this topic about flexing in the arc, that is being discussed was one I introduced that talking about using relaxing of the stance leg before the end of the arc, to increase tipping angles so that you could ski into increased counter balance. This gives you more edge grip and energy to releasing momentum. The relaxing or flexing in the arc, doesn’t release the edges in this case it's not the purpose. It's intended to actually increases ski angles by the ski momentarily being less pressured and therefore allows for more foot tipping. With this leg relaxing, flexing (I am talking about only a micro amount, and fraction of a second) foot tipping can increase ski angle, due to reduction of resistance and pressure, allowing CG also to move toward the skis, slightly.

This is a very specialized movement and can only be performed if the skier is in perfect balance and carving the skis. It is best used on ice or hard snow..

Flexing the inside leg and tipping it further can be done independently of the stance ski relaxing movement. inside leg flexing does little to enhance what I’m talking about with the stance leg relaxation, the inside leg movements ( flexing and tipping) serve to drop the hip closer to the snow.

For anyone that has Essentials handy take a look at:

Page 114 of Essentials, When Do We Flex Without Releasing

Keep in mind that this is an advanced technique. When you release from this move you use an intentional flexing of the outside leg which is going to create a very strong release.

This happens frequently in WC skiing and in advanced Carving. In racing it happens just under the gate.

[rwd]

Max,

Is this strictly a high angle carving technique, or is it applicable to short radius turns with less edge angle?

[Max_501]

When to use the technique is covered on Page 114 of Essentials.

[Matt]

As I understand the move:

Begin flexing to release, and tip in the old direction at the same time. The flexion upsets balance so that the body moves into the next turn, while the skis continue to turn "uphill".

Since the body is moving across the skis, the skis are not fully loaded. In other words, you do not remain in the old turn when flexing. You do not remain balanced on the stance leg and straining to hold onto the old turn in this flexed position.

From page 114: "Be prepared the moment you flex and increase tipping. The arc will tighten, increasing the pressure you feel under the arcing skis"

[BigE]

To me, a short burst of increased pressure does not indicate musculature carrying the load. When I think of "carrying the load" I think of it for an extended time.

[Max_501]

BigE, the point being made is that your description was of the 'flexing to release' movement rather than the 'flexing to tighten the turn' movement.