"But because Jeannie sells a "rotary" boot her theories are not relevant??? So irrelevant in fact, that you'd rather have the hearsay of skiers that are totally untrained in bootfitting?"
For someone who wants to ski PMTS, someone selling rotary boots is not a person from whom you need to be getting your equipment advise. Anyone reccomending heel lifts "almost universally" for women, has very little understanding of biomechanics and how biomechanics relates to skiing. If women are less forward balanced than men, it's probably just because ignorant bootfitters are sticking heel lifts and spoilers in boots that already have too much forward lean for any human being, male or female. I'm sure they mean well though.
As for Thoren theory, I have no real comments. I do however have pictures.
http://www.jeanniethoren.com/crystal_mountain.htm
Those heelifts are working great!
Joseph [/quote]
Help still needed re custom liners, also - heel lift Q
20 posts
• Page 2 of 2 • 1, 2
Finally a chance to reply
by HRH » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:46 pm
It seems I am definitely late to the party on this topic. Since much advice has already been disseminated, I?ll just select from some posts that answered with helpful information.
First, Ken is right, heel lifts are only beneficial if the right measurements are taken and from these measurements it is determined that heel lifts are indeed a biomechanical assistance. Too many shops and ?Experts? throw around hell lifts for a solution for every aliment.
Joseph is right as well.
Joe said, ?For someone who wants to ski PMTS, someone selling rotary boots is not a person from whom you need to be getting your equipment advise. Anyone recommending heel lifts "almost universally" for women, has very little understanding of biomechanics and how biomechanics relates to skiing. If women are less forward balanced than men, it's probably just because ignorant boot-fitters are sticking heel lifts and spoilers in boots that already have too much forward lean for any human being, male or female. I'm sure they mean well though.
Jay says, ?Anyone who advocates a heal lift just because you are a woman should be avoided.?
?This says nothing about Jeannie's theory. Nor does it say anything about her services. She most probably does individually assess the women she sees.
Though this does open up some interesting questions:
1. Are the fore/aft requirements different in rotary versus lateral boots
2. Are the fore and aft requirements different for using PMTS techniques versus TTS techniques (does including steering and rotary result in a different "optimal" fore/aft set up)?
3. Do experienced alignment people from the two traditions recommend a different fore/aft set up or systematically offer different remedies and /or reasons?
I don't know. I am not asking which system is best here. Just whether there are differences in what is recommended and why? Any comments?
I will make a few comments concerning the holes and questions left in this discussion. First there is considerable data about binding placement based on research, not opinion or expert conjecture. In fact, when I hear the word ?expert? in skiing I become skeptical immediately.
During the International Congress of 2001 in St Christoph Austria, a Canadian researcher presented a study about binding placement. I have quoted this information at least six times on this forum in the past year. Beyond 1.5cm forward or back of center, binding placement, the testers (all levels of skiers including racers were in this study) no longer liked the way the skis performed.
Jeanne is a well meaning person and I like her very much. She does her best to promote skiing and the love for skiing. She does not have any alignment training or biomechanics training. She told me once that she won?t do alignment because she doesn?t understand it. She relies on others to address alignment problems, just as most ski instructors do. She goes by the seat of her pants and she offers many options to skiers during her sessions.
It is hog wash to place heel lifts in women?s? boots because of the perceived lower center of mass. The differences between individuals in the same gender are much more extreme than the differences between genders. This is from biomechanical data.
From the experience Jeanne offers (ski and boot testing) some skiers find solutions based on many different impressions of skis, boots, heel lifts or binding placement during her sessions. Often the results are impressions that skiers have based on their limited skiing experience. For example, if you are a skidding type skier, you may like the binding forward and a heel lift, because skidding becomes easier.
Is this an approach I would use, definitely not, because most skiers do not know whether they are making correct turns or incorrect turns? Skiers are often lost when it comes to equipment decisions because they have nothing reliable to base their decisions on.
Skiers rarely can tell if equipment changes are in their long term best interest. _________________
To address Jay?s questions:
1. If you are using rotary boots you already have a problem with edge grip in the upper part of the turn. I would go with a proper assessment before I added or decreased delta angles even for rotary boots. I would never place a heel lift in a ski boot for an improper or loose fitting boot (as to take up space, to reduce heels from lifting).
2. If you are using TTS techniques it is helpful to have extra pivoting ability to get into the upper part of the turn? Rotary boots and heel lifts go together; they put you on the ball of the foot, which helps to pivot the ski when you twist or steer the foot/leg, even if you don?t have biomechanical limitations in the ankle. The problem is that you end up stuck in a low hip position to compensate for the high delta, created by most rotary boots and heel lifts. There is a definite high ramp, excessive delta, forward lean, heel lift, forward cuff angle, big calf in high spoiler boot, on snow skier look.
It is amazing that all these things can exist at the same time in one person?s boots. They do and they do often. Add to that description, rigid, high solid arched footbeds and a foamed liner, and you get a locked foot/ankle. I have seen this set up often coming out of Sore Foot stores. Amazing in this day and age, but actual living, walking, human beings (if they still can walk) come into our alignment center with these situations.
To answer question 3, I would have to say yes, as I see skiers coming into our alignment center constantly with boots recommended by ski instructors, where the boots are totally inappropriate for the skier. The boots are usually the boots that the instructor finds appropriate for his/her needs or the instructor is sponsored by the company he/she recommends. We would never recommend a rotary boot unless the skier couldn?t fit in any version of a performance boot.
In conclusion, we do use heel lifts at the Harb Skier Alignment Center, but we use them when appropriate for the individual, based on their dorsi-flexion range and their on snow skiing fore/aft stance. We also use them when a low, large calf muscle is pushing the skier forward beyond their ability to control their stance. We prefer to find a lower boot with less forward lean and we also remove all spoilers for people like this. We stick them to the tongue of the boot to give the skier earlier contact from a straighter stance.
We have gone as far as to redesign the upper part of the boot to allow the skier to stand naturally. Lange boots are notorious for producing this over flexed, forward leaning, hip seated, situation. We find many women in Lange because they make the smaller sizes, while other boot companies do not. I understand that Head will be making women?s boots in size 22 next year, which will avail us of a lateral more upright standing boot in a small size.
First, Ken is right, heel lifts are only beneficial if the right measurements are taken and from these measurements it is determined that heel lifts are indeed a biomechanical assistance. Too many shops and ?Experts? throw around hell lifts for a solution for every aliment.
Joseph is right as well.
Joe said, ?For someone who wants to ski PMTS, someone selling rotary boots is not a person from whom you need to be getting your equipment advise. Anyone recommending heel lifts "almost universally" for women, has very little understanding of biomechanics and how biomechanics relates to skiing. If women are less forward balanced than men, it's probably just because ignorant boot-fitters are sticking heel lifts and spoilers in boots that already have too much forward lean for any human being, male or female. I'm sure they mean well though.
Jay says, ?Anyone who advocates a heal lift just because you are a woman should be avoided.?
?This says nothing about Jeannie's theory. Nor does it say anything about her services. She most probably does individually assess the women she sees.
Though this does open up some interesting questions:
1. Are the fore/aft requirements different in rotary versus lateral boots
2. Are the fore and aft requirements different for using PMTS techniques versus TTS techniques (does including steering and rotary result in a different "optimal" fore/aft set up)?
3. Do experienced alignment people from the two traditions recommend a different fore/aft set up or systematically offer different remedies and /or reasons?
I don't know. I am not asking which system is best here. Just whether there are differences in what is recommended and why? Any comments?
I will make a few comments concerning the holes and questions left in this discussion. First there is considerable data about binding placement based on research, not opinion or expert conjecture. In fact, when I hear the word ?expert? in skiing I become skeptical immediately.
During the International Congress of 2001 in St Christoph Austria, a Canadian researcher presented a study about binding placement. I have quoted this information at least six times on this forum in the past year. Beyond 1.5cm forward or back of center, binding placement, the testers (all levels of skiers including racers were in this study) no longer liked the way the skis performed.
Jeanne is a well meaning person and I like her very much. She does her best to promote skiing and the love for skiing. She does not have any alignment training or biomechanics training. She told me once that she won?t do alignment because she doesn?t understand it. She relies on others to address alignment problems, just as most ski instructors do. She goes by the seat of her pants and she offers many options to skiers during her sessions.
It is hog wash to place heel lifts in women?s? boots because of the perceived lower center of mass. The differences between individuals in the same gender are much more extreme than the differences between genders. This is from biomechanical data.
From the experience Jeanne offers (ski and boot testing) some skiers find solutions based on many different impressions of skis, boots, heel lifts or binding placement during her sessions. Often the results are impressions that skiers have based on their limited skiing experience. For example, if you are a skidding type skier, you may like the binding forward and a heel lift, because skidding becomes easier.
Is this an approach I would use, definitely not, because most skiers do not know whether they are making correct turns or incorrect turns? Skiers are often lost when it comes to equipment decisions because they have nothing reliable to base their decisions on.
Skiers rarely can tell if equipment changes are in their long term best interest. _________________
To address Jay?s questions:
1. If you are using rotary boots you already have a problem with edge grip in the upper part of the turn. I would go with a proper assessment before I added or decreased delta angles even for rotary boots. I would never place a heel lift in a ski boot for an improper or loose fitting boot (as to take up space, to reduce heels from lifting).
2. If you are using TTS techniques it is helpful to have extra pivoting ability to get into the upper part of the turn? Rotary boots and heel lifts go together; they put you on the ball of the foot, which helps to pivot the ski when you twist or steer the foot/leg, even if you don?t have biomechanical limitations in the ankle. The problem is that you end up stuck in a low hip position to compensate for the high delta, created by most rotary boots and heel lifts. There is a definite high ramp, excessive delta, forward lean, heel lift, forward cuff angle, big calf in high spoiler boot, on snow skier look.
It is amazing that all these things can exist at the same time in one person?s boots. They do and they do often. Add to that description, rigid, high solid arched footbeds and a foamed liner, and you get a locked foot/ankle. I have seen this set up often coming out of Sore Foot stores. Amazing in this day and age, but actual living, walking, human beings (if they still can walk) come into our alignment center with these situations.
To answer question 3, I would have to say yes, as I see skiers coming into our alignment center constantly with boots recommended by ski instructors, where the boots are totally inappropriate for the skier. The boots are usually the boots that the instructor finds appropriate for his/her needs or the instructor is sponsored by the company he/she recommends. We would never recommend a rotary boot unless the skier couldn?t fit in any version of a performance boot.
In conclusion, we do use heel lifts at the Harb Skier Alignment Center, but we use them when appropriate for the individual, based on their dorsi-flexion range and their on snow skiing fore/aft stance. We also use them when a low, large calf muscle is pushing the skier forward beyond their ability to control their stance. We prefer to find a lower boot with less forward lean and we also remove all spoilers for people like this. We stick them to the tongue of the boot to give the skier earlier contact from a straighter stance.
We have gone as far as to redesign the upper part of the boot to allow the skier to stand naturally. Lange boots are notorious for producing this over flexed, forward leaning, hip seated, situation. We find many women in Lange because they make the smaller sizes, while other boot companies do not. I understand that Head will be making women?s boots in size 22 next year, which will avail us of a lateral more upright standing boot in a small size.
- HRH
Log in problems
by Harald » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:54 pm
HRH is me, Harald, I use my initials as the software at time doesn't allow me to log in correctly.
- Harald
- Posts: 1181
- Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:36 pm
- Location: Dumont
by sunrise » Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:11 am
Just got back from a few days out of town. Harold's post and my conversation with SkierSynergy has answered a lot of my questions. Thanks. Definitely I'm someone with a low large calf muscle. As for my dorsi-flexion range - I will send some pics to SS to try and at least get an idea of this.
Hi BigE,
I never said that her theories are not relevant. I simply don't have enough information or experience to know if they are what is needed in my own case.
What I do know, from my own experience is that the past 2 seasons I've been working from PMTS material and in spite of my limited ability to work on my own without someone to assess and help correct me, my skiing has made progress that has put a real smile on my face to the degree that I feel I can totally trust the PMTS system, so naturally I wanted to hear what PMTS alignment people have to say before going ahead and doing something that might wind up being counter to my own needs.
I'm learning a lot from all the responses I'm getting here as well as other posts I read on this forum (when I have time), and from the realskiers site in general. I'm a newbie in the field of alignment and equipment and I'm not an expert skier. Perhaps because this is obvious you may be concerned that I might go ahead and follow advice of people untrained in bootfitting. I really appreciate that you took time to reply to my post and were trying to help me not go in such a direction. That's exactly what I don't want happening. Which is why I wanted to hear what the PMTS skiers who are fully trained in bootfitting have to say. So I posted my question here on this (PMTS forum) and not elsewhere. Until you and midwif told me about Jeannie and until you posted the link I'd never heard of her or what she does, and I appreciate you bringing her article and site to my attention. She's obviously empowering many women skiers and I'm all for that and, at the same time, I'm already actively working with PMTS theories so this is the way I'm more inclined to want to work. I also really appreciate SkierSynergy's willingness to try and help me out (as a result of him seeing my post here). From the conversation I had with him it's obvious to me that he has a lot of knowlege and experience with the PMTS alignment system working for people of all shapes and sizes and gender. From talking to him and from the other posts here it's now obvious to me that no alignment expert (whether PMTS or any other system) would be able to accurately assess my particular issue without having a lot more information on my anatomy and stance, etc.
SkierSynergy: re your questions: I guess when I saw that Jeannie sells both rotary and lateral boots I also wondered a similar thing.
Also, Ken - thanks, too, for your earlier advice. Apologies I missed thanking you earlier.
I'm grateful to everyone who's taken time to join in on this thread. I now know a hell of a lot more about this then when I started. When I am able to eventually get some kind of accurate assessment I'll let you all know about it.
Julianne
BigE wrote:
But because Jeannie sells a "rotary" boot her theories are not relevant???
Hi BigE,
I never said that her theories are not relevant. I simply don't have enough information or experience to know if they are what is needed in my own case.
What I do know, from my own experience is that the past 2 seasons I've been working from PMTS material and in spite of my limited ability to work on my own without someone to assess and help correct me, my skiing has made progress that has put a real smile on my face to the degree that I feel I can totally trust the PMTS system, so naturally I wanted to hear what PMTS alignment people have to say before going ahead and doing something that might wind up being counter to my own needs.
BigE wrote:So irrelevant in fact, that you'd rather have the hearsay of skiers that are totally untrained in bootfitting?
I'm learning a lot from all the responses I'm getting here as well as other posts I read on this forum (when I have time), and from the realskiers site in general. I'm a newbie in the field of alignment and equipment and I'm not an expert skier. Perhaps because this is obvious you may be concerned that I might go ahead and follow advice of people untrained in bootfitting. I really appreciate that you took time to reply to my post and were trying to help me not go in such a direction. That's exactly what I don't want happening. Which is why I wanted to hear what the PMTS skiers who are fully trained in bootfitting have to say. So I posted my question here on this (PMTS forum) and not elsewhere. Until you and midwif told me about Jeannie and until you posted the link I'd never heard of her or what she does, and I appreciate you bringing her article and site to my attention. She's obviously empowering many women skiers and I'm all for that and, at the same time, I'm already actively working with PMTS theories so this is the way I'm more inclined to want to work. I also really appreciate SkierSynergy's willingness to try and help me out (as a result of him seeing my post here). From the conversation I had with him it's obvious to me that he has a lot of knowlege and experience with the PMTS alignment system working for people of all shapes and sizes and gender. From talking to him and from the other posts here it's now obvious to me that no alignment expert (whether PMTS or any other system) would be able to accurately assess my particular issue without having a lot more information on my anatomy and stance, etc.
SkierSynergy wrote:1. Are the fore/aft requirements different in rotary versus lateral boots
2. Are the fore and aft requirements different for using PMTS techniques versus TTS techniques (does including steering and rotary result in a different "optimal" fore/aft set up)?
3. Do experienced alignment people from the two traditions recommend a different fore/aft set up or systematically offer different remedies and /or reasons?
SkierSynergy: re your questions: I guess when I saw that Jeannie sells both rotary and lateral boots I also wondered a similar thing.
Also, Ken - thanks, too, for your earlier advice. Apologies I missed thanking you earlier.
I'm grateful to everyone who's taken time to join in on this thread. I now know a hell of a lot more about this then when I started. When I am able to eventually get some kind of accurate assessment I'll let you all know about it.
Julianne
- sunrise
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:44 am
- Location: Japan
Weird Science
by Harald » Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:51 am
I will add that Jeanne herself doesn't attribute what she does to any know science or theories. She provides skis and boots and lets the skiers decide. There is very little science or alignment knowledge associated with her program. When she sees gross alignment issues she tells people to get themselves aligned where ever. The, everyone should have a heel lift thing, is a little like the elixir salesman of the old west. Jeanne is known as the ?Heel Lift Queen?, she even sells a line of personalized heel lifts, kind of the Martha Stewart of women's skiing. A good ski lesson and proper alignment assessment will go a lot further for those who would rather have long term benefits and improvement.
- Harald
- Posts: 1181
- Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:36 pm
- Location: Dumont
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