Progressing to CA and CB

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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby Ken » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:09 pm

for those that are tipping, flexing and managing their fore aft balance at a high level, it is CA and CB that becomes the gating factors to progressing to the next level. I know that I was never going to move to the next level without the work I have done on CA/CB.

Diana has at times described CA and CB as icing on the cake, The cake is tipping, shortly followed by flexing and Fore aft balance management (owning the front of the ski).

My experience exactly. Remember, this is the Primary Movements Teaching System, and the Primary Movements are movements of the feet.
if you tip and has a weak CB and CA you will ski under your potential.

Yes, but if you have a weak tipping & flexing motion, CB & CA won't help as much as strong, smooth, progressive, continuous tip and tip more and more, flex and flex deeper and deeper, and strongly pull the free foot back all the time. Now CA & CB.
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby BigE » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:18 pm

I view CB/CA as essential movements that enable the tipping/flexing and fore/aft to work better.

Like good diet and hydration enables performance, CB/CA enables the other movements to work at their peak. However, the impact of CB/CA is even greater.
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby BobD » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:58 pm

The recommendations in this thread make a lot more sense to me following last week's Super Blue Camp where I made significant progress on my use of CA/CB. Though I'd read the books and then viewed the videos multiple times, CA and CB are areas where I had developed the wrong impressions. Maria set me straight on counterbalance (resulting in some wonderfully sore hips) and then Harald fixed my thinking on counteracting.

In a chalk talk one morning Harald noted that people's hips are not equipped with enough proprioceptors for our brains to easily know what position our hips are in. (Boy, I'll say!) He also said that skiing doesn't do much to help train our brains in this regard. Harold explained that yoga is one of the pursuits that can serve to develop a better awareness of hip position.

The camp schedule included full-days and half-days (mornings). In the afternoons of the half-days later in the week I sought out spots where the snow had been heavily packed and was somewhat slippery from skier traffic in order to experience the more solid edge hold that CA/CB can provide! That felt great.
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby cheesehead » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:28 am

BobD wrote:... Harold explained that yoga is one of the pursuits that can serve to develop a better awareness of hip position....



I have been thinking about Tai Chi. It stresses fluid movements, balanced strong positions, relaxing muscles that aren't essential to the movement, and a calm mind.

When I think of yoga I think of the old-style hold-a-pose method. Maybe one of the newer styles where movement is involved. But then it becomes a lot like Tai Chi.
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby jbotti » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:48 pm

I promised some video of the NET , NSPP and other CA related things I have been working on. We shot 45 minutes of footage on Saturday but then inadvertently erased most of it when we filmed on Monday. I have a little footage that may be useful (I was focused on capturing other stuff that day) and I will sort through it in the next day or so. I am back skiing on Thursday next week, so whatever I don't have we will re -shoot. It's probably for the better. We were using my 40X zoom camera and the close up shots from a distance using the zoom at 30 or 40X were just terrible with massive wobbling. Max has said that much beyond 10-15X can't really be used because of the wobble factor. We will try to correct this and post some video that is both good and also shot well (hopefully, as we are all mediocre with the camera in hand).
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby jbotti » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:52 pm

Ok, here is some video. You will have to forgive some of the videography. We shot a lot of video using a 40x zoom and it was so wobbly it was unusable. This was all shot using a Sony Cybershot Camera that shoots video but only has a 4X optical zoom.

The first video is of the NET/ZET (no or zero energy turn). This is on flat terrain. I will critique myself in advance, I am allowing my outside (downhill hand to fall too far back and at times I am reaching some just to get the pole back to even with my boot (the place where it should be all the time in the NSPP)). This is what's great about Video, I know what to work on next week!! The big focus in all of this skiing is CA and making sure that the hips create CA along with the upper body.



This next video is on steeper terrain and then terrain flattens, so its starts with a little higher energy brushed carved turns and then comes back to the NET.



The last video is on much steeper terrain, an example of what practicing the NET and NSPP ultimately leads to. Sorry I don't have more and or longer clips but this should suffice to give people a better sense.

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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby jbotti » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:18 pm

Actually (after further review) both pole tips need to be further forward all the time.
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby BigE » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:00 pm

To my eye, there appears to be some pivotting going on, especially in the Hi-C evident in video 2, where the tails move across the hill very rapidly.

Contrast with the following, where the speed of the brushing across the Hi-C is far slower.



Video 3 appears that there is some back seat driving going on. Could it be that a heel push is what looks like pivotting?
Last edited by BigE on Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby jepoupatout » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:16 pm

John,could you gave us more explanation with the NET, i know it is a very advance exercise to isolate the pelvis with minimum Tipping. I am not sure what to observe in those video. Is it your hip or something more global. I can see the small pivot and back seat that happened rarely but i think those small error could happened when we try something new. However i don't want to miss the essential of the exercise so that when i'll be back on ski i will try the right thing knowing what to focus on and what to look at when watching your demo.
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby jbotti » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:02 pm

When you counter with the hips very quickly early in the arc, the skis will come around quickly creating a less round or more pivoted turn shape. For me in some ways this is good (as an exercise or drill) because I have skied for years with no CA in my hips. The NET for me is a drill that is about making sure that my hips CA in every turn and early in every turn. Again dialing this back some will create a rounder turn shape.

It is this balance between how much and how soon we CA the hips combined with the amplitude of tipping and forward tip pressure that creates the perfect brushed carved turn.

Some of what I was trying to demonstrate was more of the drill aspect of the NET.

I will say that the results from working on my CA pretty much non stop for the past 40 ski days has made a big difference in my skiing. I have a few photos that I can post that will illustrate some of it.
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:37 pm

J,
Whats your RoM in your ankle [dorsiflexion]?
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby serious » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:51 am

I understand the exercise and how it will promote active CA, but, as the video shows, it does have a "rotational" component that results in the tail displacement we try very hard to avoid. Definitely an advanced drill where one has to focus real hard on hip action.
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby BigE » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:02 am

Isn't counteraction named to counteract the tendency for the skis to pivot during a turn? It should stop the tendency to pivot, not increase it. Tuck turns use CA to get edge angles, not to wash out the tails. Adding CA early in the Hi-C ought to create an earlier, more positive edge engagement, like what happens in a tuck turn.
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby jepoupatout » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:37 am

Tipping comes first and if you didn't tip soon enough your skis stayed flat a little longer and come the risk to pivot. CA solidify the position and help you to support the pressure build during the turn. My comprehension is that the NET focus on the hip and less on Tipping and consequentely you are at risk to pivot.
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Re: Progressing to CA and CB

Postby geoffda » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:17 am

BigE wrote:Isn't counteraction named to counteract the tendency for the skis to pivot during a turn? It should stop the tendency to pivot, not increase it. Tuck turns use CA to get edge angles, not to wash out the tails. Adding CA early in the Hi-C ought to create an earlier, more positive edge engagement, like what happens in a tuck turn.


Counteracting counteracts the femoral rotation that is introduced by tipping (which is what can cause the ski to pivot). CA doesn't create angles on its own, but it is a necessary movement to allow you to fully access tipping, counterbalance, and fore-aft. If you can do the aforementioned three things, CA is what binds them all together and allows you to stack yourself over your edges for maximum grip.

As John says, in short turns, aggressive (yet progressive) CA will absolutely cause the ski to whip around. If you are on an edged ski, it will not cause you to pivot (but you must be ON the ski--not necessarily edge locked, just fully balanced on the outside ski). Instead, (when combined with tipping, etc.) it results in the tip to biting and brings the ski around quickly. When I do this with brushed short turns, I still see two distinct tracks, even though the turn shape itself is very eliptical.

CA is the secret to a Bullet Proof Short turn. It allows you minimize the amount of time in the fall line by bringing the ski around very quickly. If you have proper CA you will find that it actually results in your inside hand moving over your inside ski edge at turn finish. IOW, CA combines with CB and foot pullback to move your body out over your skis for the strongest possible turn finish.

All of that said, IMO CA is the hardest of the movements to develop and it requires all of the other pieces to be there to be truly effective. It is also easily undone by poor pole mechanics. Make sure you have all of the other movements in place before you spend too much time working on CA.
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