Progressing to CA and CB

[Ihamilton]

The stationary drills and TFR drills really work for me. It is something I have to focus on. We have had about a meter of snow in the last week and the pressure of the deep snow makes a lot of skiers rotate their hips and follow their skis. This creates a lot of balance problems as their balance goes to the inside and they use a lot of upper body movement to initiate the turns. Using John's drills I found my upper body was stable in the deep stuff and turn initiation was effortless. I have some PMTS sect members from down under as clients tomorrow and I think I will warm them up using John's drills.

[A.L.E]

I have some PMTS sect members from down under as clients tomorrow.

LOL

[JohnMoore]

Is it possible to do TOO MUCH counterbalancing? My suspicion is that it isn't. In all the video I see of the really good PMTS and race skiers, when the legs are out to the side, the torso is as near to vertical as is anatomically possible, but it never goes past the vertical, i.e, bent in the direction of the legs (because, I assume, that is just not physically possible). I ask because in the absence of video of myself skiing, what I try to do is to exaggerate the movements as much as I can, to make sure I'm really doing them. Am I right in thinking that I can exaggerate this movement all I like and I will never be able to overdo it?

[serious]

JohnMoore!

I think exaggerating this movement is ok for training, but in reality it would feel weird to go past having a perpendicular upper body relative to the slope, so no risk there. CA, on the other hand, is very different. It is much harder to know what is right and when it becomes contrived.

[HighAngles]

And it's important to remember that correct CB requires a side crunch - it should not be a "breaking at the waist move" while lurching your shoulders forward. That results in a very hunched over position.

[jepoupatout]

Question: Do you think that we can exagerate Counter Acting in the low C but not in the High C.
Yesterday i was experimenting CA at the transition of a flat to a steep pitch and i took me 3 runs to adjust my CA, i was not quick enough to adjust to the change of inclination of the pitch. Finally i got it. So from that experience i doubt that i could exagerate CA in a transition of pitch and even in a very steep hill.
However in the low C when we already establish good tipping-CB and CA and that we are relatively under control i wonder if we can force CA and exagerate it. I think yes

My other thought is about quickness of tipping relatively to synchronysing CA as CB. I practiced after that experience quickness of tipping and i had a hard time to synchronize CA, it was amazing to feel the intro in the turn (very quick) but i had more challenge to close the turn because my CA and CB was not synchronise, i had some delay. I watched after that the Free skiing video of HH , the Quickness section for tipping and realize that it will be a must to be quick and synchronize all the essentials.
What's your experience about it?

[jbotti]

One of the main points of the NET (done on flat terrain at slow speeds) is to engrain early CA and CB. I think if you are having trouble with synchronizing the timing between tipping and CA and CB, spend more time on flat terrain at slow speeds and really work the NET as a drill. What you will find is that you will get a different outcome in the turn and turn shape depending on how much tipping you apply, how much CA and CB and when it gets applied and how quickly you move your hips to a countered position. The speed, timing and amplitude of all of these will produce different turns. This is why Harald has said that this is a higher level exercise. Unlike learning to tip, where early and as much as possible is always best, learning to synchronize the timing speed and amplitude of these movemenst is what will produce amazing SRT's that mainatin and use the energy from one arc to the next.

If you watch Harald doing Brushed SRT's on steep terrain, unless you look at the tracks you can't tell that he is slightly brushing the turns instead of edge lock carving them (although the very tight turn radius is good evidence that they aren't edge lock carved). This is the ultimate goal of working the NET and NSPP and it requires very specific movements at specific times in the arc. I have to practice this over and over again and again at very slow speeds dialing in exactly when and how much to tip, when to increase tipping annd when to release my hipps and at what amplitude etc. I am also always asking if I flexed my old stance foot and released that ski first because it is very easy in this drill to grab the new big toe edge first.

Lastly if you focus on always extending the inside arm and pole in every arc, and focus on keeping your pole tips forward all the time, this will dial in the correct fore aft balance to do the NET corrcetly (as well as create early CA). It is very easy to get back on the skis on harder groomed snow (which will allow this) and cheat to some degree. If you do this your turns will have a skid at the end (rather than early displacement in the high C and a carve in the latter part of the arc) and you will not have energy or pop from arc to arc.

I plan on posting some video and maybe this will help. It won't be until after MLK weekend.

[jepoupatout]

When you do the NET, you start static on edge pushing forward your inside hand to CA matching hip, from there you do TFR with no tipping :
Question: When do you start CA the other side, is it when you pass the fall line, i've tried to visualize the movement but i am not so sure.

[jbotti]

The no tipping part is only an exercise to loosen up your hips. When you do this you are having the hips turn the skis and you are creating maxium hip CA on each turn and you're purposefully holding back from tipping so that your hips do all the work. This is not the way to ski and it is only an exercise to create movement in the hips. Once you have felt what the hip movement feels like, go back to doing No Energy Turns using tipping. Tipping is essential in all short radius turns.

As for when CA starts in the new arc, the answer is immediately or almost immediately. Flexing and tipping of the old stance leg should be the first move, but once entering the High C, Ca and the inside arm and pole extending forward should be occurring. The hips should move with the upper body as it starts to counter against the legs. Too much early hip movement will prevent you from building energy in the turn and it will create a pivot slip type movement causing the skis to turn sideways immedaitely instead of creating a brushed arc which is what we are looking for.

The exercise that I wrote about a while back that invloves no tipping is only something to practice to get the feel of the hips moving with the upper body. If you attempt to ski like this (without tipping) you will essentially be doing pivot slips and that will not get you anywhere.

[jepoupatout]

but once entering the High C, Ca and the inside arm and pole extending forward should be occurring.

So not being active by moving the inside arm early in High C will delay CA or not creating a very strong CA. I was doing the NSPP and after that flexing- tipping -CB but was not very active with my new inside arm. My thought for CA were about:

start the counteract the tipping by facing my hips and torso slightly outiside the upcoming arc

.

[serious]

jbotti: The hips should move with the upper body as it starts to counter against the legs.

Let me understand this better: are you suggesting to actively start CA after transition? Do you really need to do it?

I ask because after the transition my hips are already facing somewhat to the outside of the new turn (kind of square to the skis), so I let the legs extend as the new turn develops and as the skis carve (or brush carve) and come around they effectively come into a deeper counter action. In other words, I find myself mostly holding hip position and letting the lower body bring on the CA. Another way to put it is that I "resist rotation of the upper body with the turn" rather than actively going for the CA. Does that make sense?

Maybe I am doing it wrong, but for short turns this seems to work well. In longer turns I do have to be more active with the upper body to achieve CA.

[geoffda]

jbotti: The hips should move with the upper body as it starts to counter against the legs.

Let me understand this better: are you suggesting to actively start CA after transition? Do you really need to do it?

I ask because after the transition my hips are already facing somewhat to the outside of the new turn (kind of square to the skis), so I let the legs extend as the new turn develops and as the skis carve (or brush carve) and come around they effectively come into a deeper counter action. In other words, I find myself mostly holding hip position and letting the lower body bring on the CA. Another way to put it is that I "resist rotation of the upper body with the turn" rather than actively going for the CA. Does that make sense?

Maybe I am doing it wrong, but for short turns this seems to work well. In longer turns I do have to be more active with the upper body to achieve CA.

What you are describing is "skiing into counter" and it is biomechanically weaker than actively moving the hips. While it might work for you in grippy snow, there will be a threshold in icy conditions beyond which you will start losing the tail of the ski at the bottom of the turn. In *all* conditions, you will get better grip and better response from the ski if you actively counteract.

[jbotti]

I think the easier way to talk about it is starting with the upper body. As you start a turn to the left (right foot is the stance leg) you want to push the left arm and pole forward which will automatically create some CA with your upper body (as it rotates some in opposition to the direction you are turning, which is left). When I am working on CA I am looking for as much of this rotation and tension that I can get. I want my left arm and pole as far forward as I can get it and I want as much coiling in my torso and olbliques as my flexibility will allow. I also want this position to result in CB as well and I want to feel that pinch in my right oblique.

Moving on to my hips. It is possible to create upper body CA and still have your hips following you legs or knees which are aimed left in a left turn. This was a place that I was having some real trouble. What we want to happen is that the hips follow the CA of the upper body. If your hips are aligned with your knees you have not created hip CA. Someone once told me an easy way to tell if you hips have CA. If you can dump on your skis (meaning your rear is over the tails of the skis, the hips have no CA). If you do CA with the hips, your butt will be inside the skis.

Now again when I am practicing the NET as a drill (or really when I an just freeskiing and focsing on CA) I want the maximum upper body and hip CA on every turn and I want to hold it into the release on the old stance ski.

As I mentioned in the earlier post, the speed and timing to which one goes to fully CA in the hips and upper body helps dictate the shape of the turn and the shape of the arc. This is something that needs to be played with. But the goal is maximum (or darn close to maximum) upper body and hip CA in every arc.

Remember the coling and the tension is real important. It's the coiling in the body and hips that enable one to transition with just tipping and flexing quickly, because as soon as the ski is released the feet will automatically follow the direction that the upper body and hips are facing. Add in some tipping and the skis snap into the next arc effortlessly. This is a key element to the BPSRT and skiing slalom like turns in steep terrain at terminal velocity is only possible when large amounts of CA is occuring in every arc. The alternative (deciding to move your feet into the next arc) works but it's just slow.

[BigE]

BTW: I just ordered the DVD essentials library, instructors manual, free skiing dvd and ACBAES 1. Then I found ACBAES 1&2 hidden in a closet. There must be some good stuff here....hopefully it arrives next week.

I am finding that CA relates very nicely to inside leg pull back.

[HeluvaSkier]

BTW: I just ordered the DVD essentials library, instructors manual, free skiing dvd and ACBAES 1. Then I found ACBAES 1&2 hidden in a closet. There must be some good stuff here....hopefully it arrives next week.

Perhaps off topic (sorry JB),

JUST? That's a lot to swallow in a few days/months/years. There is a lifetime of material there [seriously]. I have all of those books sitting on my coffee table right now... and the DVDs on the floor in front of the TV. E, I know you came to the game late, but what have you been doing the last 5+ years? [I was studying.] I know you spent time trying to reconcile this with what you already knew, but did you not think to research PMTS while doing your reconciliation?

Even long before I was a 'PMTS guy' I had read the books... I 'knew' PMTS... just hadn't put it into real practice yet. That's the difference really. Lots of guys can say they "know PMTS" (I've skied with them; They are reading right now pining for the days that they stood a chance on any terrain; yeah that was a dig - I feel as if I owe to some people) but until they have changed their skiing, they are still just TTS people trying to reconcile what they know with what the best are actually doing. Make no mistake, when I talk about PMTS I'm not talking about the system, but rather just plain good skiing. The best skiers in the world fit this model [Japan/Korea/WC Skiers]. PMTS is just the avenue to get where everyone wants to be. Many will say they are there, but when you dismantle the movements, they aren't even close.

Being critical is not important... who you are critical of is important though.

Something Harald said: ANYONE can be an expert skier... he didn't say EVERYONE. It really is up to the skier to decide. If you go half-way, you'll be just that - half-way.