Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

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Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby emakarios » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:21 am

I am working on PMTS releases and want to make sure my movements are correct.
1) What are the movements in the Super Phantom move?
2) Is the Super Phantom simply a more clearly defined Phantom move or is there a different movement?
3) What are the movements in a weighted release?
4) What movements are different in a Super Phantom move compared to a weighted release?

I know the information is already in the forum, but appreciate someone putting it together in one post.
Geoff??
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby geoffda » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:42 am

1) What are the movements in the Super Phantom move?
The Super Phantom is just a one-footed release. As you finish the turn, balance completely on the LTE and lighten/lift and tip the old stance ski.

2) Is the Super Phantom simply a more clearly defined Phantom move or is there a different movement?
The Phantom move can be performed at any point to make the skis the turn. The Super Phantom is using the Phantom Move to link turns; i.e. when you use the Phantom Move to transition, you are doing the Super Phantom. Once your student understands the Phantom Move, using the Super Phantom to change edges is the next logical progression. When they can do that, they will have instantly achieved an extremely high level of skiing.

3) What are the movements in a weighted release?
As you finish the turn, keep all you weight on the stance foot. Flex and tip and move into the new turn. Transfer your weight to the new stance ski after the edge change. As a drill, lift the old free foot prior to flexing. Doing that will ensure that all of your weight is on the old stance foot.

4) What movements are different in a Super Phantom move compared to a weighted release?
The movements are the same. The only difference is the order of release-transfer-engage. In the Super Phantom you transfer your balance/weight first (transfer-release-engage). In the weighted release, the weight/balance transfer happens last(release-engage-transfer). Or, if you do a two-footed release, you get release-transfer-engage.
Last edited by geoffda on Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby emakarios » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:42 am

One more question for clarity: when you say that the phantom move can be performed at any time during the turn, I assume you are referrring to lightening, tipping and pulling back the inside ski during the turn; is the what you meant?
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby geoffda » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:49 am

emakarios wrote:One more question for clarity: when you say that the phantom move can be performed at any time during the turn, I assume you are referrring to lightening, tipping and pulling back the inside ski during the turn; is the what you meant?

Yes. What I should have said is that the Phantom Move can be performed at any time *to make* the skis turn. Once you understand how to make the skis turn using the Phantom Move, it is a relatively easy thing to incorporate the same movements into the Super Phantom in order to change edges and begin linking turns.
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby Randy0223 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:31 am

Thanks for posting Geoff. Nice summary of key release movements.
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby Max_501 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:07 pm

Slight clarification.

h.harb wrote:The Phantom Move is the same thing as the Super Phantom. The only reason there is such a thing as a Super Phantom is because skiers thought they were doing a PM, but they were still pushing the uphill, old inside ski to the big toe edge, before lifting the stance ski. Therefore, I had to describe the PM in more detail and I called it the Super PM. The SuperPM puts emphasis where it should be, on standing on the old inside ski, the LTE, before the stance leg is flexed and stance ski lifted.
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby MonsterMan » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:10 pm

How does one transfer without releasing? I think in the purest sense, RTE holds for all turns.
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby geoffda » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:47 pm

MonsterMan wrote:How does one transfer without releasing? I think in the purest sense, RTE holds for all turns.

Certainly, all turn transitions require releasing the old turn, transferring weight/balance, and engaging the new edges. But being able to vary the order in which those three things happen will make you a much better skier. This reordering is defined by the three basic releases and there are situations where each release will work better than the other choices.

The easiest way to see what I'm talking about with respect to transfering without releasing is to consider the static one-footed release drill. You start this drill standing on your LTE with your downhill ski in the air. At that point you've already transferred; all your weight is on the new stance ski. All you can do now is release and engage.

Why would you want to delay the release? Whenever it gets steep and icy, I care very much about speed control. So I transfer balance to the new stance ski, but I stay on my LTE while I'm tipping into the new turn. The release happens late because I want to be well set up before I let go of edges that are holding.

A great way to practice this is the Phantom Javelin. Set the new stance foot down on LTE and ride it for a ski length before releasing the turn and tipping the new free foot. It isn't easy! If you watch Harald doing this drill in the Performance Free Skiing video, you can see that he is doing this.

Again, though, we don't need to get philosophical here. MonsterMan can do all three releases so he is absolutely welcome to disagree with me. His skis will always do the talking. For anyone else reading, simply focus on learning all three releases and your skis will do the talking too.
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby emakarios » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:21 am

Max 501's quote from HH helps clarify the PM and SPM. Same movement at turn transition, more clearly defined.
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby Ken » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:04 pm

Why would you want to delay the release? Whenever it gets steep and icy, I care very much about speed control. So I transfer balance to the new stance ski, but I stay on my LTE while I'm tipping into the new turn. The release happens late because I want to be well set up before I let go of edges that are holding.

I describe this as holding that Little Toe Edge a long as possible. Don't give it up, but hold the edge until it is taken away by your body moving across the skis, impelled by the tipping of the other foot. This is an example of the "O" frame of the legs--one foot is holding the LTE while the other is tipping away as much and likely as fast as you can tip it. Your off-edge time and distance are as short as possible to keep control on that icy surface. In this case we are Transferring, Releasing, Engaging. You end up with your skis on their new inside edge in the High-C part of the turn, the upper third of the turn, with your body downhill from the skis (it feels that way). With the skis on the inside edge in the High-C, you have control.
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby meput » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:09 pm

Ken wrote:
Why would you want to delay the release? Whenever it gets steep and icy, I care very much about speed control. So I transfer balance to the new stance ski, but I stay on my LTE while I'm tipping into the new turn. The release happens late because I want to be well set up before I let go of edges that are holding.

I describe this as holding that Little Toe Edge a long as possible. Don't give it up, but hold the edge until it is taken away by your body moving across the skis, impelled by the tipping of the other foot. This is an example of the "O" frame of the legs--one foot is holding the LTE while the other is tipping away as much and likely as fast as you can tip it. Your off-edge time and distance are as short as possible to keep control on that icy surface. In this case we are Transferring, Releasing, Engaging. You end up with your skis on their new inside edge in the High-C part of the turn, the upper third of the turn, with your body downhill from the skis (it feels that way). With the skis on the inside edge in the High-C, you have control.


Nice. Had not thought of it in this fashion. Thinking of flexing to release, but had not thought to slow the transfer and engage portion by holding the LTE.

Currently lots of ice in the east (look carefully and you can see fish swimming under the surface :lol: ). Will give the holding the LTE as long as possible a go my next day on the mountain.
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby emakarios » Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:26 am

Three of us spent a few hours practicing the Super Phantom yesteday, based on input from this post. Randy remembered Jay Peterson coaching his group to continue tipping the old free ski to the LTE after transferrring weight to this ski. Randy thought of the movement as flexing to transfer. I thought of it as continuously throughout the turn tipping the free ski to the LTE and flexing the free leg including while transferring weight to the LTE, then beginning the "O" move be tipping the old stance ski to the LTE. I found myself having to go back and correct CT and CA, which is typical for me; focusing on a new movement seems to make me want to give up on other primary movements. We'll shoot video next week and I will post mine for input.
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby Ihamilton » Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:36 pm

I worked on the weighted release today for a couple of hours. We had a lot of new snow but the conditions were variable. In some places there was boot top snow and some places ice, so quick feet were a must. It was snowing hard so visibility was limited, couldn't see far ahead, hence the quick feet.
Geoff, i followed your description. There was ice so fore aft balance had to be good. I found that the old stance foot had to be pulled back when releasing. This made it feel like my hips were higher while going over the old Stance foot. This made me feel quicker and more adaptable, I would transfer balance to the new stance ski before FL, in FL and after fall line depending on the circumstances. Each turn was different. When I needed to be really quick I would tip the old stance foot to the BTE and then immediately release and pull back. It was a lot of fun and a real challenge to maneuver through the snow. I thought the weighted release was the best movement to use today, thanks for the help.
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby cheesehead » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:25 am

geoffda wrote:1) What are the movements in the Super Phantom move?
The Super Phantom is just a one-footed release. As you finish the turn, balance completely on the LTE and lighten/lift and tip the old stance ski.

2) Is the Super Phantom simply a more clearly defined Phantom move or is there a different movement?
The Phantom move can be performed at any point to make the skis the turn. The Super Phantom is using the Phantom Move to link turns; i.e. when you use the Phantom Move to transition, you are doing the Super Phantom. Once your student understands the Phantom Move, using the Super Phantom to change edges is the next logical progression. When they can do that, they will have instantly achieved an extremely high level of skiing.

3) What are the movements in a weighted release?
As you finish the turn, keep all you weight on the stance foot. Flex and tip and move into the new turn. Transfer your weight to the new stance ski after the edge change. As a drill, lift the old free foot prior to flexing. Doing that will ensure that all of your weight is on the old stance foot.

4) What movements are different in a Super Phantom move compared to a weighted release?
The movements are the same. The only difference is the order of release-transfer-engage. In the Super Phantom you transfer your balance/weight first (transfer-release-engage). In the weighted release, the weight/balance transfer happens last(release-engage-transfer). Or, if you do a two-footed release, you get release-transfer-engage.


I have been a little foggy about the differences described here, and as far as I know, is accurate and clearly described.

One point of terminology/technique I am still not clear on is one-footed-release vs. phantom move: same thing or different?

Also is it really necessary to have "phantom move" and "super phantom" if they are actually the same thing? In other words, is the "super phantom" really a "phantom move turn"? Different terminologies are not used for the other releases -- a one-footed release is assumed to be part of a turn, so you don't have a "super one-footed release" meaning a turn with a one-footed release. And there is no "super 2-footed release" or "super weighted release" either.

It is confusing for us beginners to try to figure out what might be the difference if there is really none. I suppose the super phantom term is out in the world now but would it be better to avoid using it?
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Re: Phantom, Super Phantom and Weighted Release

Postby Max_501 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:32 am

cheesehead wrote:One point of terminology/technique I am still not clear on is one-footed-release vs. phantom move: same thing or different?


The one footed release is a drill that uses the phantom move for the release.

cheesehead wrote:Also is it really necessary to have "phantom move" and "super phantom" if they are actually the same thing?


They are the same thing. In Book2/DVD2 HH explains that he renamed to super phantom because some readers of the first book didn't capture the all the movements needed to perform the phantom. Lift, tip, and pullback.
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