Lower Back Problems

[Guest]

Biowolf:
Side bends with dumbbells are classic exercise.
Here is the picture which shows how it is done
http://www.hardcorebodybuilding.com/sidebend.htm
If my lower back hurts, I would not do side bends with dumbbells either.

The waist twists I have described is what I do and I do not know anybody else who does.

Here are some alternatives.
(1) I have seen very good oblique machines which allow to add resistance to the waist twist movement, but my gym does not have one like that.
(2) People use barbell bars on their shoulders to do twists, the problem with it is that the only resistance you get out of it is because of the inertia of the bar and people end up doing jerky fast movements to get more resistance, this is not good and I find it not very effective.
(3) There are what is called Russian twists in which you lay on the floor and keep a plate (barbell plate) in front of you and twist the torso. You have to lift the torso a bit and this is not good if the lower back hurts.

What I do is simply what I have described, I use cables to get resistance in my waist twists, I make sure that the lower body is locked by kneeling all the way (so my butt touches my feet), i extend my arms fully in front of my torso and I grab the cable and rotate my torso using obliques pulling the cable. I will attach a drawing to this post which will show it.
This exercise works for me.

<IMAGE HOSTING WEB SITE IS DOWN, I WILL ATTACH PICTURE WHEN IS UP, OR WHEN I FIND A DIFFERENT ONE>

I hope this is clear, if something is not let me know.
As you know, I am not a pro trainer or anything like that.

jclayton: lets have mkgil better explain why. The fact is that I can find many links which say the opposite, that the abs area is mostly fast twitch fibers and that one need to go heavy and short sets.
I do long sets for abs, except for obliques, I believe more weight and more overload is better for the joints which will adapt to it and thus better for my spine.
Long endurance sets are great, but I find them not that great for my joints, short heavy sets (3-reps to 30 reps) with recovery time provide the best way for body adaptation to increase levels of stress/weight and their health.

Robert

[piggyslayer]

The last post was me, the login thing did not work the first time AGAIN.

Robert

[mkgil]

jclayton: lets have mkgil better explain why. The fact is that I can find many links which say the opposite, that the abs area is mostly fast twitch fibers and that one need to go heavy and short sets.
I do long sets for abs, except for obliques, I believe more weight and more overload is better for the joints which will adapt to it and thus better for my spine.
Long endurance sets are great, but I find them not that great for my joints, short heavy sets (3-reps to 30 reps) with recovery time provide the best way for body adaptation to increase levels of stress/weight and their health.

Robert

Thanks for the confidence vote, Robert. But I'm just another guy with an opinion. IMO, goal determines training. For strength, you can train the abs like the biceps, as Robert indicates. After a six pack? Add dieting to the regimen. If it's strength endurance, as in the martial arts, go bodyweight or add resistance, but move toward more reps and sets.

I like Robert's oblique work, unless a compromised lumbar disc is a problem. If so, get rehabbed. After medical clearance, here's a variation that stabilizes the lower back with countered rotational movements: lie face up on the floor with both legs and arms extended toward the ceiling--think dead bug. Then simultaneously slowly lower both legs to the floor to the left (keeping a right angle with the body) while lowering both arms to the floor on the right (also keeping both arms at a right angle to the body). Legs one way, arms the other. Then bring arms and legs back to the starting position, and lower the other way. In time you can add weight to hands and feet.

If you want to work the outer obliques without torquing the back too much, hang from a high bar with both legs bent a bit, and crunch them up toward one side of the upper body. In time you can hold a dumbbell between your feet.

If your back is healthy and you want to keep it that way, Robert's oblique routine would be a great part of your training cycle. Robert can do it without a healthy back because he's obviously been doing this for a while and knows his body very well. (If you've competed, Robert, I'm guessing AAU class I or II as a powerlifter, right?)

Michael

[piggyslayer]

Michael, I am nowhere close to be that good, I lift for recreation and to stay healthy and in decent shape, I do not consider myself a powerlifter.

Robert

[mkgil]

I use far more resistance than in typical abs workout when working on obliques and I think this creates the overload allowing my spinal joints to strengthen.

Here is why I think it helps (mkgil, I would love to read your comments).

Side bending in addition to obliques involves several muscles in the lumbar region e.g. psoas major, quadratus lumborum which play role in stabilizing the spine in the lumbar region. In addition there is bunch of muscles on the spine itself which are involved in side bending called intertransverse muscles.
Waist twist involves psoas major (above) as well as muscles which are attached diagonally across the spinous processes in "chevron-like" pattern called transversospinalis (they can also be used in side bending). I believe these muscles have critical role in stabilizing the spine and they get stronger with waist twists.


Robert

Nothing worthwhile I can add. You're right on target. Kinesiologists might bicker, but they're always bickering with one another in their journals. (Kind of like us skiers. ) Readers can think of the whole surface and deeper muscles of the sides like a girdle. When strong, they serve to tighten the whole midsection, front, side, and back.

If skiers with back problems choose to utilize some of the recommendations here, there are only two things that I can think of at this moment to add: pelvic tilt and stomach bracing.

Getting the pelvis "square" under the spine is a problem for almost everyone we see with back problems. It isn't as much a matter of strength as of neurological firing patterns. Train the patterns like this: Lie on your back with your knees bent, heels about 12 inches from your buttocks. Draw the stomach tight and flatten the lower back so that it's in contact with the floor. Keep it there for five breathing cycles. Don't let the lower back lose contact with the floor. Now slide the feet about six inches farther away from the buttocks. Continue this through five more breathing cycles until your legs are fully extended on the floor, while keeping the lower back in contact with the floor. Don't be discouraged if you can't hold floor contact at the most leg-extended position. Now stand with knees slightly bent, hands on waist so that your fingers are in contact with your abs. Draw in your stomach. Feel the level of muscular tension with your fingers and hold that level. Now slowly contract your buttocks. Notice how the pelvis tilted under you into a "squared" postition? O.K., now hold that postition while breathing through several cycles, while keeping your stomach sucked in and buttocks tightened. Breathing makes it much more difficult to hold position, but that's what you'll need to retrain the firing pattern. I do these as part of my morning and evening stretching as well as before I work out. (You are stretching in flexion, extention, and rotation each day, right?)

Presuming lower back problems, stomach bracing should be done every time you bend at the waist twist, or lift something--including yourself out of a car, chair, etc. Simply brace your stomach as though someone were about to punch you in the midsection. It'll take about a month before it's second nature. Incidently, the stomach brace to increase interthroacic pressure to stabilize the spine is why I use a weight belt when squatting. I'll keep it one notch too loose to train myself to push against it while warming up to my working sets. At working poundages, I cinch it tight enough to turn blue. If my back were sound, I'd save the tight cinching for limit sets.

Michael

[mkgil]

Michael, I am nowhere close to be that good, I lift for recreation and to stay healthy and in decent shape, I do not consider myself a powerlifter.

Robert

If memory serves, you squat around 400. Pretty impressive for a recreational lifter.

Michael

[piggyslayer]

I used to, but only low-bar and only to parallel not lower.
For last couple of months I squat with 3 plates (315lb) on my heavy days.
I am getting old .

Robert

[Tilt]

Michael:
Your comments about pelvic tilt and "squaring" the pelvis made me sit up.
Over the years I observred that all wolrld class skiers seem to have one thing in common, they have a perfectly rounded back. I have the feeling that the only way to get into a posture like that is by "squaring" one pelvis. Where lower class skiers bend from the waist and push their hips (and pelvis) back, good skiers always seerm to have their hips and pelvis forward. Could it be because their pelvis is "square" naturally or the have worked on it to get it there?
Last winter when I was skiing well I caught a few glimpses of this posture. Needless to say that it has a huge influence on movement patterns. You seem to hint at that. To my knowledge nobody has discussed this subject previously.

[mkgil]

Michael:
Over the years I observred that all wolrld class skiers seem to have one thing in common, they have a perfectly rounded back. I have the feeling that the only way to get into a posture like that is by "squaring" one pelvis. Where lower class skiers bend from the waist and push their hips (and pelvis) back, good skiers always seerm to have their hips and pelvis forward. Could it be because their pelvis is "square" naturally or the have worked on it to get it there?

I suspect so. However, to get an authoritative comment on how world class skiers are aligned at the pelvis, I'd want a better skier than I to comment. All I can say is that is certainly looks like you're correct whenever I look at a picture of WC skiers.

Interestingly, when my wife concentrates on keeping her pelvis squared to her spine, she reports far less quadriceps fatigue, and her turns are better.

Are you conscious of keeping proper pelvic alignment when you ski?

Michael

[mkgil]

Just looked at the thread on steering, and it looks like we'd better get more precise about squaring the hips. I'm talking about eliminating excessive anterior/posterior tilt. If you were looking at someone from the side, ideal skeletal alignment would have the front and back of the pelvis parallel to the approximate center line of the spinal curvature. If you rotate the pelvis by drawing back your new inside ski you could still have a squared pelvis the way I was describing it. But I can see where that terminology could be confusing. Perhaps we should just refer to techniques and exercises to keep the pelvis from excessive tilting.

Michael

[BigE]

Biowolf:
Side bends with dumbbells are classic exercise.

A better exercise is side bends with a barbell in a power cage. The shape of the dumbells keeps them too far out fromt the body. The barball lets the hand slide directly up the hip. The power cage means you don't have to set the weight down to the floor between sets.

[theskiwizard]

As a Physical Therapist and Board Certified Orthopedic Specialist, I have been reading with interest this thread on lower back problems. This is my first post to the forum, one I felt important in order to provide more information about this subject.

I fully agree with mkgil that prior to beginning any new exercise (especially back exercises if you are already experiencing back pain) is to be checked out by your physician. I would also caution you that not every exercise is good for every back and I believe all exercise programs should be individualized to meet individual needs and goals.

Much of the discussion here revolved around back extension exercises, some stomach bracing and abdominal work. Current thinking/research on core stability keeps in mind 2 things 1. Performance of exercises in Pelvic or spinal neutral for foundational strength and 2. Recruitment of "deep" stabilizing musculature (local muscles- transversus abdominus and multifidii).

1. Pelvic or spinal neutral is a "zone" in which the joints of the back are neither too flexed nor too extended during performance of the exercise. This is the safest place to begin strengthening and to build a foundation of core stability. Look at your wrist, your wrist is in neutral when it is not bent in either direction. If you put it at one extreme or the other you are putting it at greater risk for injury. Now the trick is to learn to stabilize your wrist in a more neutral position (or close to neutral) and be able to maintain that position throughout the day while performing your daily activities. Granted there are times you will be out of that position to perform a task, however the goal here is to learn to control movement and stability of the joint through constant monitoring. Most of this constant monitoring is done subconsciously, however in people who have injuries or pain, many times the monitoring process is not working properly. As a result (as stated previously in this thread) one may develop dysfunctional firing patterns.

2. Recruitment of deep stabilizing musculature: Spinal stabilization (as I currently understand it) is very similar to stabilizing any other joint in the body, it requires a co-contraction on both sides of the joint. The muscles best situated to do this in the spinal region are the transversus abdominus and multifidii. Transversus abdominus is the deepest layer of the abdominals and its fibers run horizontal vs. vertical or obliquely. This provides a "corset" type position around the abdomen. The transversus wraps around to the low back and inserts its fibers into the thoracolumbar dorsal fascia. When contracted, the transversus pulls the fascia tight over the multifidii muscles. The multifidii are one joint muscles vs the erector spinae group which cross several joints. Therefore in terms of stability the multifidii are much better positioned to stabilize each individual joint. (I agree the erector group still needs attention and strengthening). OK, back to how these mucles work together to create a co-contraction.....The transversus pulls the thoracolumbar dorsal fascia tight over the multifidii. This tension facilitates stability as the multifidii tighten (swell) up into the tense dorsal fascia, thus providing stability to the spine.

I hope that gives you a better idea on how back stabilization is accomplished. I am in process of writing a column for the website which will have more information on core stability, I will also provide more info on how to recruit the core stabilizing musculature as well as how you can incorporate stabilizing exercises and challenge your core stability in your exercise routine.

One last comment...mkgil mentioned seeing an Osteopath for soft tissue and joint mobilization, then a physical therapist for flexibilty and strengthening. I would just like to add that a good manual physical therapist can and will provide soft tissue and joint mobilization and/or manipulation (if needed) along with the appropriate stretches/exercises (including pelvic lumbar stabilizing exercises) providing the individual with a comprehensive program.